Accompanying concertos, Play full tuttis or cut? Options

[Yet another muso]

I am accompanying some diplomas this session that involve concertos. One of the teachers of the students told me that in diplomas full tuttis should be played, but I am a bit surprised by this since everywhere else it seems to be expected to make sensible cuts of the longer tuttis. Does anyone know if this teacher is correct?

We need to work this out since it will affect the timing of the programmes. In one programme, without the tuttis the programme will be under length and she will have to add another short piece. She would much rather not have to do this though - she is playing the trumpet and worried about stamina. She likes the idea of substantial parts of the time of her recital being taken up with me playing the piano alone! I want to be sure though. I would hate for us to be told once I start playing a long tutti on the day that I need to cut them, only for her to then end up under time.

I probably need to email the board about this but does anyone have the answer?

Thanks

[andante_in_c]

No, the syllabus says something like this, 'you should use your discretion in matters such as the omission of tutti sections'. This is the ABRSM syllabus - I'm not sure about Trinity or LCM.

I played the Mozart D major concerto for my LRSM and cut all the tuttis in the same way that I would for a grade exam.

[katyjay]

Trinity's requirement is "you should.....truncate extended introductions (and tutti passages in concerto movements) in a musically appropriate fashion to ensure that there is not an excessive amount of time spent listening to the accompanist alone."


LCM's requirement is "The decision to include or not to include repeats, tutti sections, etc. rests entirely with the candidate.
Examiners will be looking for a rounded, musical performance."

[miffy]

I haven't played full tutti passages for exams or competitions and I think the longer ones are required to be cut (as musically as possible!).
Stamina is always an issue in a longer programme for both soloist and accompanist and that in itself takes practice. Lots of playing through the programme (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yet another muso]

No, the syllabus says something like this, 'you should use your discretion in matters such as the omission of tutti sections'. This is the ABRSM syllabus - I'm not sure about Trinity or LCM.

I played the Mozart D major concerto for my LRSM and cut all the tuttis in the same way that I would for a grade exam.

The diplomas are DipABRSM so there is the answer. Not sure where the teacher got the idea that I'd have to play the lot. Good news for me, I don't have to learn the tuttis (always the only hard bits!), not such good news for the students. Thanks very much!

[Mad Tom]

No, the syllabus says something like this, 'you should use your discretion in matters such as the omission of tutti sections'. This is the ABRSM syllabus

That is true enough but it is really a cop-out, and I suspect there is a subsidiary clause omitted: " ... so long as your judgement agrees with the examiners ... " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Trinity's guidance is far more helpful.

[Yet another muso]

Interesting development on this one. I spoke to the teacher in question who said he rang the board about this. He said the board said that cutting tuttis is optional, but if you do it you must cut with care and the candidate must be ready to discuss why they justified those cuts in the viva. So he's sticking by his assertion that he wants me to play all the tuttis, since he wants to avoid those difficult questions, as well as providing his trumpet pupils with more recovery time.

I'm not sure I am entirely comfortable with the decision - some of these concertos have really long tuttis which you would really expect to cut, and I think the examiners could equally ask in the viva why didn't they do cuts. However, I feel I've covered myself by questioning the teacher on this. He is adamant with his decision, and as long as candidates and teacher accept it is their decision then at least I can't get the blame now if there are any repercussions. It is all a bit more confusing than I imagined!

[miffy]

I think as they used 'discretion' in their wording they are expecting (good) cuts. I reckon they will just as likely ask the candidate why they DIDN'T cut the tutti..suspecting it may be to use up time or due to lack of stamina..

[andante_in_c]

I can't help with the Viva issue because I only played the Mozart at my resit recital - so no Viva to justify anything in! But I passed, so it didn't affect things too much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RoseRodent]

I think as they used 'discretion' in their wording they are expecting (good) cuts. I reckon they will just as likely ask the candidate why they DIDN'T cut the tutti..suspecting it may be to use up time or due to lack of stamina..

Absolutely agree, it will not avoid awkward questions, it will raise them. The candidate will have to have a really good answer as to why the tuttis were musically justifiable to the specific type of performance being given i.e. and assessed performance by the soloist. Justifying the presence of the tuttis from a musical perspective for a recital is a whole other situation, a diploma level musician should be able to read an audience also, if the audience (albeit of 2 examiners) has come specifically to see you perform that is what they expect to see.

The examiners will be waiting to see how the tuttis have been cut, but if it becomes obvious that's not going to be the case it is possible they'll stop you anyway.

I agree, however, that you have done your bit and the soloist has taken this responsibility, you have raised your concerns and they have answered the concerns, let the chips fall where they may, it's not your duty to push the matter.

[Yet another muso]

Just a quick update on this issue. In the end for all the diplomas I accompanied this session, where concertos were involved the soloists all asked me to play all the tuttis. The concertos involved were Mozart Bassoon concerto, Trumpet concertos by Haydn, Neruda and Bohme, and the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David. The examiners certainly never stopped us as a result and no questions were asked about it in the viva. Will let you know if there are any comments in the examiners reports when results come out.

[jod]

If you decide not to cut them this is a performance issue in and of its self. You may be giving your 'lip' rest, however that will be all you are resting. During that time you will need to actively participate in the performance, show signs of listening, be very still and generally be aware that although it is your accompanist rather than an orchestra playing, you as the soloist must mot detract from their playing.

Your decision not to cut them may be questioned in the viva, or you may want to bring it into your viva as an element of performance and stagecraft that is often ignored.

This is easier in a Fellowship exam where the recital is longer, but I thought I'd throw it in as food for thought (especially if your long-essay contains any reference to stagecraft and the Concerto).

Accompanists need to be very aware about what their soloist aims in their diploma performance is. When I took my LRSM, my accompanist read my Programme notes to make sure we were both on the same wave length.

Apart from giving the entrant reassurance about their writing, this is very beneficial to the accompanist as it informs you how they tick.

[KixMusic]

Just a quick update on this issue. In the end for all the diplomas I accompanied this session, where concertos were involved the soloists all asked me to play all the tuttis. The concertos involved were Mozart Bassoon concerto, Trumpet concertos by Haydn, Neruda and Bohme, and the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David. The examiners certainly never stopped us as a result and no questions were asked about it in the viva. Will let you know if there are any comments in the examiners reports when results come out.

The tutti's in the Neruda are particularly long, totaling over 3 minutes of the actual concerto which is around 14 minutes so I would definitely cut some of them, especially as there are some fairly natural cuts in them anyway. Ditto the David which I know well as my daughter played it for her diploma and I teach it to my students. It's surprising that they weren't quizzed on their decisions to include them all as the syllabus certainly does seem to suggest that they should have done so.

Congratulations to you on learning all of these pieces and accompanying the diplomas - some seriously hard work must have gone in on your part!

Out of interest, what were the other trombone pieces?

[Yet another muso]

Just a quick update on this issue. In the end for all the diplomas I accompanied this session, where concertos were involved the soloists all asked me to play all the tuttis. The concertos involved were Mozart Bassoon concerto, Trumpet concertos by Haydn, Neruda and Bohme, and the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David. The examiners certainly never stopped us as a result and no questions were asked about it in the viva. Will let you know if there are any comments in the examiners reports when results come out.

The tutti's in the Neruda are particularly long, totaling over 3 minutes of the actual concerto which is around 14 minutes so I would definitely cut some of them, especially as there are some fairly natural cuts in them anyway. Ditto the David which I know well as my daughter played it for her diploma and I teach it to my students. It's surprising that they weren't quizzed on their decisions to include them all as the syllabus certainly does seem to suggest that they should have done so.

Congratulations to you on learning all of these pieces and accompanying the diplomas - some seriously hard work must have gone in on your part!

Out of interest, what were the other trombone pieces?

Thanks, always nice when people realise the work accompanists have to put in! I had five diplomas in all, at the end of what had been a pretty relentless term of teaching and concerts so not much time to learn all the music. Life would have been easier without having to do all the tuttis which often don't sit comfortably on the piano. The trombonist also did the Hindemith Sonata movements 1, 2 and 4 (not exactly a walk in the park!) and the Guilmant.

I had the same feelings as you about the Neruda, but in fact if candidates were to want to discuss the full use of ritornello form, you would need to consider the movements without cuts to really understand this fully, so they had good answers at the ready as to why they didn't do the cuts, but in the end didn't need them. I guess the lesson I learnt was that so long as the whole programme was within time limits specified they aren't going to complain. Will have to wait for the examiners written reports for final verdict though . . .

In answer to Jod's comments, I certainly went through programme notes with all of them and did practise vivas with them all, getting them to justify/explain any points in their notes which I felt needed it, so we certainly worked as a team in that respect. It's hard work but very rewarding, certainly all of them were very stretched by all they had to do to meet the demands of the diploma and developed hugely as a result. Fingers crossed for some good results as the icing on the cake now!

[KixMusic]

Just a quick update on this issue. In the end for all the diplomas I accompanied this session, where concertos were involved the soloists all asked me to play all the tuttis. The concertos involved were Mozart Bassoon concerto, Trumpet concertos by Haydn, Neruda and Bohme, and the trombone concerto by Ferdinand David. The examiners certainly never stopped us as a result and no questions were asked about it in the viva. Will let you know if there are any comments in the examiners reports when results come out.

The tutti's in the Neruda are particularly long, totaling over 3 minutes of the actual concerto which is around 14 minutes so I would definitely cut some of them, especially as there are some fairly natural cuts in them anyway. Ditto the David which I know well as my daughter played it for her diploma and I teach it to my students. It's surprising that they weren't quizzed on their decisions to include them all as the syllabus certainly does seem to suggest that they should have done so.

Congratulations to you on learning all of these pieces and accompanying the diplomas - some seriously hard work must have gone in on your part!

Out of interest, what were the other trombone pieces?

Thanks, always nice when people realise the work accompanists have to put in! I had five diplomas in all, at the end of what had been a pretty relentless term of teaching and concerts so not much time to learn all the music. Life would have been easier without having to do all the tuttis which often don't sit comfortably on the piano. The trombonist also did the Hindemith Sonata movements 1, 2 and 4 (not exactly a walk in the park!) and the Guilmant.

I had the same feelings as you about the Neruda, but in fact if candidates were to want to discuss the full use of ritornello form, you would need to consider the movements without cuts to really understand this fully, so they had good answers at the ready as to why they didn't do the cuts, but in the end didn't need them. I guess the lesson I learnt was that so long as the whole programme was within time limits specified they aren't going to complain. Will have to wait for the examiners written reports for final verdict though . . .

In answer to Jod's comments, I certainly went through programme notes with all of them and did practise vivas with them all, getting them to justify/explain any points in their notes which I felt needed it, so we certainly worked as a team in that respect. It's hard work but very rewarding, certainly all of them were very stretched by all they had to do to meet the demands of the diploma and developed hugely as a result. Fingers crossed for some good results as the icing on the cake now!

The Hindemith is a beast for the pianist! How long do the candidates have to play for in the DipABRSM? My daughter had to do 32 - 38 minutes without any breaks for her ATCL but I know DipABRSM allows a 5 minute break. My gut feeling about the trombonists programme is that it might be a bit short (depending on how long for the ABRSM dip) as the David is a max of 14 mins with cadenzas and tuttis, 10 for the Hindemith and around 6 or 7 for the Guilmant so just hitting the 30 mins mark?

That's a very good point about the neruda - it would be very uneven and unmusical to hack at it to truncuate the tuttis.