Photocopying music for pupils Options

[Pixie*Porsche]

I'm very confused as to if I can photocopy music for pupils (not whole books), just a grades worth of scales (I used the really old fashioned laid out in grades Clarinet scales book) or a movement of a sonata / concerto etc..

Please help!!

[sbhoa]

As far as I'm aware you can't do it legally.
You can have a study copy for yourself but if someone else is using it then they should own the original.

[Pixie*Porsche]

As far as I'm aware you can't do it legally.
You can have a study copy for yourself but if someone else is using it then they should own the original.

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Alison]

As far as I'm aware you can't do it legally.
You can have a study copy for yourself but if someone else is using it then they should own the original.

This is correct. If you write the scales out by hand and then photocopy that is OK though.

(Although officially if you put "ABRSM Grade 2 scales" or whatever at the top then you need permission first - ABRSM hold the copyright of that particular grouping of scales, I'm told (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) )

[owainsutton]

...or a movement of a sonata / concerto etc..

In many cases, then yes, you can, because they're out of copyright. However, determining whether a particular edition is out of copyright can be tricky! If it's available on IMSLP, though, you can download from there and at least fall back on the argument that to the best of your knowledge you aren't breaching UK copyright (that site is hosted in Canada, due to their relatively lenient copyright restrictions).

(Although officially if you put "ABRSM Grade 2 scales" or whatever at the top then you need permission first - ABRSM hold the copyright of that particular grouping of scales, I'm told (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) )

I'd like to know the legal argument for that! Certainly implying any direct connection to or representation of the ABRSM would be a no-no, but putting 'Grade 2 scales, as specified by the ABRSM syllabus' gets around that. I can't see how the grouping of scales can, in itself, be subject to copyright.

[dolce@piano]

I'm very confused as to if I can photocopy music for pupils (not whole books), just a grades worth of scales (I used the really old fashioned laid out in grades Clarinet scales book) or a movement of a sonata / concerto etc..

Please help!!

There is a slight misunderstanding.

Unless the scales are a unique 'composition' by the Board, if they were published over 25 years ago, normally you'd have no problem photocopying them and doing what you like with them. The Board may well own copyright on them but this is not an infinite right - the time frame is very clearly laid out.

The publisher of a piece of music (as opposed to the composer) has a 25 year copyright on his printed version of the piece. No more.

Equally, a movement of a sonata from a composer that died over 70 years ago AND from an edition printed over 25 years ago has no copyright protection and you are at complete liberty to photocopy it, lend it, give it and even sell it. It is completely in the public domain.

However, if it is a new edition (i.e. printed within the last 25 years) this does not apply. Or if it is an edition printed 50 years ago, say, but from a composer who only died quite recently (less than 70- years ago) this does not apply either.

I am not a practising lawyer now but loved intellectual property law when I did it and the general public should not be scared off from what is their legal right by companies who try to protect their financial interests over and above their due.

PS I am not refering to the Board here.

You 'own' Mozart's sonatas, for instance, - everyone owns them - they are a gift to the public. And a wonderful gift, at that - you don't need to pay for them.

.

[Roseau]

Equally, a movement of a sonata from a composer that died over 70 years ago AND from an edition printed over 25 years ago has no copyright protection and you are at complete liberty to photocopy it, lend it, give it and even sell it. It is completely in the public domain.

Do you know if this is true of French copyright law as well?

[RoseRodent]

...or a movement of a sonata / concerto etc..

In many cases, then yes, you can, because they're out of copyright. However, determining whether a particular edition is out of copyright can be tricky!

Very tricky! Just because the music contained within a volume is out of copyright doesn't necessarily mean the edition as published in a volume is not copyrighted separately, e.g. many pieces in the AB piano syllabus are out of copyright but once placed in the AB selected piano examination pieces books they are once again copyrighted material, usually because fingering marks or editorial dynamics have been added. You may legally download the exact same music, but you must not copy the one printed in the selected examinations book. I have a copy of one of my pieces which is pinned to the front of the original just because I didn't want to write experimental fingerings all over the original and then perhaps rub them out and not be able to see what I eventually decided on. Insanely, this copy is still illegal even though it resides directly with the original. The same music, downloaded from the internet, is behind both copies, and it's legal. Boggle!

Like almost every part of law, the various copyright acts are not consistent with each other and there is often not a single right answer to any question of copyright. For example, it's expressly legal to make a copy of something in an alternative format so that you personally, while still owning the original, can enjoy it on alternative media. So you can rip a CD onto MP3 so you can play it on your MP3 player. Except that the law also says that "overriding the copy protection on a CD" is a copyright offence, so if it's copy protected then you are not given freedom to enjoy your right to rip the contents. There is a section in the original and un-repealed legislation stating that "Nothing done for the purposes of education" shall breach copyright, yet all schools have to abide by copyright laws. Who's right? Whoever wins the court case!

IF the publishers are signed up to the Music Publishers? Association?s Code of Fair Practice appendix C that allows you to make copies within certain restrictions, details available at the MPA website.

[Impressionist]

Equally, a movement of a sonata from a composer that died over 70 years ago AND from an edition printed over 25 years ago has no copyright protection and you are at complete liberty to photocopy it, lend it, give it and even sell it. It is completely in the public domain.

So, if I've understood this correctly... for example I have all the old ABRSM piano grade books dating from the 70s and early 80s (so around 30 years old) and I would be able to photocopy those pieces by composers who have been dead for more than 70 years e.g Telemann, Beethoven etc. Is this right? It would be a useful source of material if so!

Edited to add... or perhaps not now having read RoseRodent's reply. <confused>

[owainsutton]

However, if it is a new edition (i.e. printed within the last 25 years) this does not apply.

To clarify, it needs to have been published over 25 years ago - reprints of old editions don't gain a new copyright, because there's no creative act involved, and this is why Dover Scores have long been able to reprint old editions and sell them cheaply.

(The work of editors and engravers both count as creative acts for this purpose.)

[dolce@piano]

Equally, a movement of a sonata from a composer that died over 70 years ago AND from an edition printed over 25 years ago has no copyright protection and you are at complete liberty to photocopy it, lend it, give it and even sell it. It is completely in the public domain.

Do you know if this is true of French copyright law as well?

What I know for a fact is that the 70 year composer's copyright law is the same - 70 years after the composer's death, his/her music is in the public domain and everybody has equal right to it. (see http://www.myriad-online.com/images/forum/...ts_dauteur.pdf).

There is also a French law which allows a single photocopy to be made of any music as long as it is made privately, by the individual, to be used in the idividual's home (see further down on the same site). There's obvisouly a bit of vagueness here but it is assumed that it would not cover a teacher making lots of photocopies but would be fine for pupils to have their own copy at home, especially useful if, for instance, they live half the time with one parent and half with the other.

I should know, but have just realised that I'm not 100% sure, about the publishers' rights. I know about UK ones but France I'm going to check.

Roserodent, you're right that there are certain complications but the basics for printed music are very clear - just remember 25 years after publication and 70 after composer's death.

And Owainsutton, good point.

.

[Seer_Green]

Useful info here: http://www.mpaonline.org.uk/?q=content/code-fair-practice

[Alison]

(Although officially if you put "ABRSM Grade 2 scales" or whatever at the top then you need permission first - ABRSM hold the copyright of that particular grouping of scales, I'm told (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) )

I'd like to know the legal argument for that! Certainly implying any direct connection to or representation of the ABRSM would be a no-no, but putting 'Grade 2 scales, as specified by the ABRSM syllabus' gets around that. I can't see how the grouping of scales can, in itself, be subject to copyright.

I was told by the copyright person at ABRSM that the syllabuses themselves are copyright, and that includes the scale requirements. I was making my own booklet of pieces from the Grade 1 and 2 lists at the time, having obtained permission from the publishers. ABRSM were not happy at the thought of me typing the scales out (loss of sales from their own scale publication I suppose); I got round it by including some other scales too and just telling my pupils which ones to practise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Equally, a movement of a sonata from a composer that died over 70 years ago AND from an edition printed over 25 years ago has no copyright protection and you are at complete liberty to photocopy it, lend it, give it and even sell it. It is completely in the public domain.

So, if I've understood this correctly... for example I have all the old ABRSM piano grade books dating from the 70s and early 80s (so around 30 years old) and I would be able to photocopy those pieces by composers who have been dead for more than 70 years e.g Telemann, Beethoven etc. Is this right? It would be a useful source of material if so!

Edited to add... or perhaps not now having read RoseRodent's reply. <confused>

If fingerings, dynamics etc have been added then you have to wait 70 years after the person who did them is dead before you can photocopy, because they have added their own "creative bit".

[dolce@piano]

No, Alison, the fingerings and dynamics do not, in the normal course of events, constitute a new version sufficient to create a new composers' copyright - i.e. the piece does not become Mozart's sonata as arranged by X just because X has added some editorial fingering and dynamic suggestions.

They are, howvever, part of the publishers' copyright and so protected for 25 years after the first publication.
This is exactly why the publishers have a copyright - to repay them for that time and effort. And why it is shorter - because, quite rightly, it is deemed less important than the actual composing of the work.

(An actual arrangement of a piece is a different issue - that has a new 'composer' and so a new composers' copyright).

.

So I agree with Impressionist - those old 1970 exam pieces from old composers are not covered by copyright.
It is also worth noting that the publisher would have to show that they had added new and original dynamics and fingerings. Now, it's pretty obvious that although Mozart himself may not have added specific dynamics to his Minuet, it's not rocket science to have (off the top of my head) lines 1 and 2 mf, line 3 p and line 4 f, for instance. Plenty of 19th century versions will have that marked and so it doesn't 'belong' to the 1970 publisher - indeed, if it is relatively standard 'minuet' practice, then it doesn't 'belong' to anyone.

Everyone has to make up their own mind and I understand that some people says it's not worth the bother but many judges get very irate that public works are being tied up because publishers have corporate clout and Joe Public gets scared off. The 25 year and 70 years after death rules are the norm, anything else has to be justified as an exception.

.

.

[owainsutton]

I was told by the copyright person at ABRSM that the syllabuses themselves are copyright, and that includes the scale requirements. I was making my own booklet of pieces from the Grade 1 and 2 lists at the time, having obtained permission from the publishers. ABRSM were not happy at the thought of me typing the scales out (loss of sales from their own scale publication I suppose); I got round it by including some other scales too and just telling my pupils which ones to practise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I think they might have given you incorrect information. The syllabus itself is copyright, sure, and you can't freely photocopy it or reproduce large chunks of text. The syllabus requirements, however, are a different matter, and creating one's own notation of scales does not breach copyright, I'm confident of that (or I wouldn't have produced my own!).