The Player or the Instrument?, A better violin is better for the player? Options

[ViolinQueen]

I'm just interested to know what everyone thinks about this whole topic of 'a better violin can be better for a player'. My Violin is a simple Antoni Debut, purchased from DJMusic - Having little experience of violins, I decided to purchase it because from the reviews, I thought that it was probably okay for its price (?50 + postage) - that was when I decided to give it a try... But I wish I hadn't rushed into a decision now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Its a bit cheap sounding and although it looks good, I'm not sure about the sound - especially after I saw a demonstration of it on youtube. My music teacher, (NOT specialised in violin area) says that with some decent (maybe dominates?) strings I could MAYBE go to grade 3/4 at a stretch - but I was kinda hoping that it'd take me to around grade 4/5 before I upgraded to a better violin so that I could really know where my violin preference lies. Also, with a new clarinet (and mouthpiece!) to purchase quite recently, I really can't buy two instrument at the same time! (It'll feel really cheeky to ask parents for them! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) )

However, on violinist.com (I think) it said that the tone from the violin comes from this points, in order of importance:
Player (Of course! Even a 'Orange box' will sound good in the hands of GIDOM KREMER!)
Set-up
Bow
(Last 10%, violin)

So what does everyone think? Surely a good violin aids the player, but is it crucial for a good player to have a good instrument to reach grade 8? I think not, but what is your opinion?

[willobie]

I'm just interested to know what everyone thinks about this whole topic of 'a better violin can be better for a player'. My Violin is a simple Antoni Debut, purchased from DJMusic - Having little experience of violins, I decided to purchase it because from the reviews, I thought that it was probably okay for its price (?50 + postage) - that was when I decided to give it a try... But I wish I hadn't rushed into a decision now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Its a bit cheap sounding and although it looks good, I'm not sure about the sound - especially after I saw a demonstration of it on youtube. My music teacher, (NOT specialised in violin area) says that with some decent (maybe dominates?) strings I could MAYBE go to grade 3/4 at a stretch - but I was kinda hoping that it'd take me to around grade 4/5 before I upgraded to a better violin so that I could really know where my violin preference lies. Also, with a new clarinet (and mouthpiece!) to purchase quite recently, I really can't buy two instrument at the same time! (It'll feel really cheeky to ask parents for them! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) )

However, on violinist.com (I think) it said that the tone from the violin comes from this points, in order of importance:
Player (Of course! Even a 'Orange box' will sound good in the hands of GIDOM KREMER!)
Set-up
Bow
(Last 10%, violin)

So what does everyone think? Surely a good violin aids the player, but is it crucial for a good player to have a good instrument to reach grade 8? I think not, but what is your opinion?

No.

W (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DiscoPants]

I

However, on violinist.com (I think) it said that the tone from the violin comes from this points, in order of importance:
Player (Of course! Even a 'Orange box' will sound good in the hands of GIDOM KREMER!)
Set-up
Bow
(Last 10%, violin)

So what does everyone think? Surely a good violin aids the player, but is it crucial for a good player to have a good instrument to reach grade 8? I think not, but what is your opinion?

In my opinion:
Player
violin
bow.

I don't really buy into the notion of "set-up" being independent of the violin. It certainly won't transform a bad violin into a good one.

I don't think you need a fancy violin to get to grade 8.

[ViolinQueen]

In my opinion:
Player
violin
bow.

I don't really buy into the notion of "set-up" being independent of the violin. It certainly won't transform a bad violin into a good one.

I don't think you need a fancy violin to get to grade 8.

I agree, but an 'orange box' is definitely not enough. Also, Can anyone tell me where the Antoni is able to take me? Providing that I am an 'average' player - when would you suggest that I should upgrade?

Thanks in advance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[miffy]

A set of dominants will certainly help an Antoni, and perhaps an up-grade of bow at some stage? It doesn't have to be very expensive to make a difference.
I would maybe encourage a pupil to up-grade their instrument for gd5, where you will need the higher positions, good tone control and vibrato.
A good violin set up may make the violin a little easier to play but will cost you pretty much what you paid for it in the first place and will make no impact on it's re-sale value (about half of what you bought it for) if you want to sell or part exchange it in the future.
And yes, Kremer may be able to make a better sound on it, but he has the years of technical training behind him and can quite literally adapt better than you can at the moment so you would be unfair on yourself if you were to compare yourself to what he could play on your violin. At a student stage it IS part player, part instrument that makes the difference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[miffy]

A few years ago I took on a girl and we worked hard on changing her technique, then learning new ones. She worked VERY hard and was very musical but she just sounded awful. Always.?
I used to borrow her violin to show her stuff but didn't have a problem with it as such - I have been playing for many years and can pick most violins up and make them sound ok without much effort. But that was the key to it. It didn't occur to me how much it was the violin. Her parents had paid quite a lot for it (well and truly ripped off). I used to watch her play, carefully analyse everything she did to try and figure out what on earth I was missing. She was playing gd8 pieces, it all looked right..
I finally couldn't stand it any longer and asked her parents to get her a new violin. They did, and she literally came back the next lesson looking AND sounding like a gd8 distinction.
She's now at Conservatoire.

[Claudia's Mum]

A few years ago I took on a girl and we worked hard on changing her technique, then learning new ones. She worked VERY hard and was very musical but she just sounded awful. Always.?
I used to borrow her violin to show her stuff but didn't have a problem with it as such - I have been playing for many years and can pick most violins up and make them sound ok without much effort. But that was the key to it. It didn't occur to me how much it was the violin. Her parents had paid quite a lot for it (well and truly ripped off). I used to watch her play, carefully analyse everything she did to try and figure out what on earth I was missing. She was playing gd8 pieces, it all looked right..
I finally couldn't stand it any longer and asked her parents to get her a new violin. They did, and she literally came back the next lesson looking AND sounding like a gd8 distinction.
She's now at Conservatoire.

What sort of difference was there moneywise between the two violins?

[ViolinQueen]

A set of dominants will certainly help an Antoni, and perhaps an up-grade of bow at some stage? It doesn't have to be very expensive to make a difference.
I would maybe encourage a pupil to up-grade their instrument for gd5, where you will need the higher positions, good tone control and vibrato.
A good violin set up may make the violin a little easier to play but will cost you pretty much what you paid for it in the first place and will make no impact on it's re-sale value (about half of what you bought it for) if you want to sell or part exchange it in the future.
And yes, Kremer may be able to make a better sound on it, but he has the years of technical training behind him and can quite literally adapt better than you can at the moment so you would be unfair on yourself if you were to compare yourself to what he could play on your violin. At a student stage it IS part player, part instrument that makes the difference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hmm... what sort of bows are good? I have heard their are things like Synthetic bows, 'real horse-hair' bows and... WOODEN bows!?! Does 'wooden' describe the 'body' (pardon my totally un-technical words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) ) of the bow, or the actual 'hair' part? Can someone please advice me on this...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

A few years ago I took on a girl and we worked hard on changing her technique, then learning new ones. She worked VERY hard and was very musical but she just sounded awful. Always.?
I used to borrow her violin to show her stuff but didn't have a problem with it as such - I have been playing for many years and can pick most violins up and make them sound ok without much effort. But that was the key to it. It didn't occur to me how much it was the violin. Her parents had paid quite a lot for it (well and truly ripped off). I used to watch her play, carefully analyse everything she did to try and figure out what on earth I was missing. She was playing gd8 pieces, it all looked right..
I finally couldn't stand it any longer and asked her parents to get her a new violin. They did, and she literally came back the next lesson looking AND sounding like a gd8 distinction.
She's now at Conservatoire.

So basically, are you saying that a new violin may help some people, but may not help others? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) My last music teacher (That was before I moved from the north to London) was able to do much more on my Antoni - vibrato, spiccato and stacato - all with a decent sound, but then she did play the violin for about 25 years! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) Maybe I should try to get the best standard I can on this violin... (albeit with a new bow, better rosin and dominante strings,) and upgrade around Grade 4? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Her parents had paid quite a lot for it (well and truly ripped off). I

May I ask did they buy it in a shop or over the internet? And what model did she have? What model did she buy for an upgrade?

[miffy]

Ok - this girl/violin is an extreme case, remember, which is why I used it to highlight the fact that the player should not always blame themselves, especially when they hear a more experienced player on the violin.
ViolinQueen, yes, personally I would upgrade at or after gd4, but put on some decent strings straight away and maybe a bow at some point. It won't turn you into Vengerov overnight, but it makes the journey a little more pleasant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The violin in question - I really can't remember the make now, but it was one of the expensive Chinese new 'handmade/finished' ones and a carbon fibre bow, cost her ?800, must have been about 8 or 9 years ago. The one she bought to replace it was ?1,000 old French with modern German bow (not expensive) about 4 years ago.
The dealer she bought the Chinese one from had a good reputation apparently (she got it before she came to me) and I *think* used to re-brand the violins or add her company name to them..can't quite remember accurately, sorry.

[ViolinQueen]

Ok - this girl/violin is an extreme case, remember, which is why I used it to highlight the fact that the player should not always blame themselves, especially when they hear a more experienced player on the violin.
ViolinQueen, yes, personally I would upgrade at or after gd4, but put on some decent strings straight away and maybe a bow at some point. It won't turn you into Vengerov overnight, but it makes the journey a little more pleasant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The violin in question - I really can't remember the make now, but it was one of the expensive Chinese new 'handmade/finished' ones and a carbon fibre bow, cost her ?800, must have been about 8 or 9 years ago. The one she bought to replace it was ?1,000 old French with modern German bow (not expensive) about 4 years ago.
The dealer she bought the Chinese one from had a good reputation apparently (she got it before she came to me) and I *think* used to re-brand the violins or add her company name to them..can't quite remember accurately, sorry.

*MUM! I NEED NEW VIOLIN STRINGS!* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

[miffy]

Ok - this girl/violin is an extreme case, remember, which is why I used it to highlight the fact that the player should not always blame themselves, especially when they hear a more experienced player on the violin.
ViolinQueen, yes, personally I would upgrade at or after gd4, but put on some decent strings straight away and maybe a bow at some point. It won't turn you into Vengerov overnight, but it makes the journey a little more pleasant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The violin in question - I really can't remember the make now, but it was one of the expensive Chinese new 'handmade/finished' ones and a carbon fibre bow, cost her ?800, must have been about 8 or 9 years ago. The one she bought to replace it was ?1,000 old French with modern German bow (not expensive) about 4 years ago.
The dealer she bought the Chinese one from had a good reputation apparently (she got it before she came to me) and I *think* used to re-brand the violins or add her company name to them..can't quite remember accurately, sorry.

*MUM! I NEED NEW VIOLIN STRINGS!* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

[BadStrad]

I was talking to my teacher about this recently. I got a DVD of Perlman playing (for Christmas). His left hand seemed to do nothing - but his right hand was amazing and obviously his bow was superb. Teacher said the bulk of violin playing is in the right hand - and the bow - but of course a nice violin helps.

I posted a year or so back about whether to buy a really nice violin as a learner. Lots of people said no. I now disagree. If you are always fighting the instrument the uphill battle that is learning the violin is so much harder. You don't need a great violin to get to grade eight but you'll have to work harder. Conversely if you have a good instrument you need a teacher who won't let you be lazy and let the violin play itself - you have to push for the best sound whatever level of instrument you have.

As for Dominants they're bog standard strings they last for ages but they might not suit your violin. I like Aricores because they have a mellower sound that I prefer over Dominants, which are very strident on my violin, which is a Guinari model (though sadly not an original and has a big voice without Dominants).

[ViolinQueen]

Ok - this girl/violin is an extreme case, remember, which is why I used it to highlight the fact that the player should not always blame themselves, especially when they hear a more experienced player on the violin.
ViolinQueen, yes, personally I would upgrade at or after gd4, but put on some decent strings straight away and maybe a bow at some point. It won't turn you into Vengerov overnight, but it makes the journey a little more pleasant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The violin in question - I really can't remember the make now, but it was one of the expensive Chinese new 'handmade/finished' ones and a carbon fibre bow, cost her ?800, must have been about 8 or 9 years ago. The one she bought to replace it was ?1,000 old French with modern German bow (not expensive) about 4 years ago.
The dealer she bought the Chinese one from had a good reputation apparently (she got it before she came to me) and I *think* used to re-brand the violins or add her company name to them..can't quite remember accurately, sorry.

*MUM! I NEED NEW VIOLIN STRINGS!* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

^Unfortunately, that's what happens when your daughter gets attached to music...

[ViolinQueen]

Apparently, on the internet it says that dominant strings are 'bright' sounding. I have preferences for a deeper, mellower sound, are there any cheap strings (similar price as dominants) that are like this?

-Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[BadStrad]

I prefer Pirastro Aricores - I find them much mellower than Dominants, but they are a little more expensive, maybe up to a tenner more. Gorgeous sound on my violin though. I have Zyex on at the moment (economy drive when I got them they were a good deal). They're a bit too bright for my violin - she shouts as it is!

Here's a link to some strings info http://www.violinist.com/wiki/violin-strings/