Violin prices, Dealer v private sale Options

[Claudia's Mum]

Can anyone tell me please how much difference there would be in price (if any) between a violin bought from a dealer and the same violin bought privately?

Is it the same as buying a car where there are three different valuations - for sale to dealer/auction price, private sale price and sale by dealer price?

[DiscoPants]

Can anyone tell me please how much difference there would be in price (if any) between a violin bought from a dealer and the same violin bought privately?

Is it the same as buying a car where there are three different valuations - for sale to dealer/auction price, private sale price and sale by dealer price?

I would say that violin values are much more arbitrary than car values. Most dealers have a good awareness of what the going auction price is for a given type of instrument, and this sets the "base" value for the instrument. Mark up to retail price will vary from dealer to dealer, town to town and will also depend on what work has to be done to bring the instrument up to saleable condition.

The forces driving auction prices have much more in common with the art/antiques market than with the motor trade. If a particular maker or school becomes fashionable, prices can suddenly go through the roof. This is currently happening with certain early 20th century Italian makers, for example.

Most private sellers (if they really are private sellers and not covert dealers) don't have a clue how much to ask for a fiddle. The reality is that unless you have good connections, violins are very difficult to sell, and if you want to sell on a reasonable timescale, you have to be prepared to go pretty close to the auction price, unless you get lucky. Very often, private sellers will have a hugely over optimistic idea of the value of their instrument, since they wrongly assume that the inflated insurance value that they've been given actually represents what they can realise on the open market.

Don't know if this helps you? I would say it's best to keep an open mind and treat each violin on a case by case basis, rather than generically looking for bargains amongst private sellers, for example.

[Claudia's Mum]

Can anyone tell me please how much difference there would be in price (if any) between a violin bought from a dealer and the same violin bought privately?

Is it the same as buying a car where there are three different valuations - for sale to dealer/auction price, private sale price and sale by dealer price?

I would say that violin values are much more arbitrary than car values. Most dealers have a good awareness of what the going auction price is for a given type of instrument, and this sets the "base" value for the instrument. Mark up to retail price will vary from dealer to dealer, town to town and will also depend on what work has to be done to bring the instrument up to saleable condition.

The forces driving auction prices have much more in common with the art/antiques market than with the motor trade. If a particular maker or school becomes fashionable, prices can suddenly go through the roof. This is currently happening with certain early 20th century Italian makers, for example.

Most private sellers (if they really are private sellers and not covert dealers) don't have a clue how much to ask for a fiddle. The reality is that unless you have good connections, violins are very difficult to sell, and if you want to sell on a reasonable timescale, you have to be prepared to go pretty close to the auction price, unless you get lucky. Very often, private sellers will have a hugely over optimistic idea of the value of their instrument, since they wrongly assume that the inflated insurance value that they've been given actually represents what they can realise on the open market.

Don't know if this helps you? I would say it's best to keep an open mind and treat each violin on a case by case basis, rather than generically looking for bargains amongst private sellers, for example.

Thank you, that's very useful. Is the insurance valuation more closely aligned to what you would buy the instrument from a dealer for to include shop overheads, mark up etc.?

[DiscoPants]

[
Thank you, that's very useful. Is the insurance valuation more closely aligned to what you would buy the instrument from a dealer for to include shop overheads, mark up etc.?

usually, plus a bit extra "for luck".

[elidatrading]

I would say that a private sale will realise half the insurance value at best.

Liz

[Claudia's Mum]

That's quite a difference then. I guess private sales are quite difficult to conduct then if the seller has an overinflated insurance valuation and is looking at shop prices for guidance and probably won't easily go down on price.

If someone were to take a violin to a dealer to sell on their behalf, what sort of commission would the shop take (I assume sales are made on a commission basis?)?

I have two more questions. If everyone is so intent on buying old violins, who buys new instruments made by today's luthiers? I mean professional instruments rather than student ones. Are there luthiers these days who are as sought after as Stradivarius was in his day?

And, are professional instruments ever rented out for a monthly rental rather than "loaned" or sold outright?

[DiscoPants]

If someone were to take a violin to a dealer to sell on their behalf, what sort of commission would the shop take (I assume sales are made on a commission basis?)?

Between 10 and 30% depending on the dealer. Effectively a bit higher than this due to the VAT element

I have two more questions. If everyone is so intent on buying old violins, who buys new instruments made by today's luthiers? I mean professional instruments rather than student ones. Are there luthiers these days who are as sought after as Stradivarius was in his day?

Everyone is not so intent on buying old violins. Many serious players (eg conservatoire students and professionals) use contemporary instruments, and high quality makers who are pricing their instruments sensibly continue to be sought after.

And, are professional instruments ever rented out for a monthly rental rather than "loaned" or sold outright?

It's quite rare but not unheard of.

[BadStrad]

who buys new instruments made by today's luthiers? I mean professional instruments rather than student ones.

I was chatting to a luthier about this. He said that some professionals (who travel a lot) might prefer a modern instrument as there is no worrying about cracks opening in different temperature/humidity/aircon environments. Though maybe they'd prefer an old instrument with no cracks?

As for the commission - I'm surprised it's that low - compared with say an art gallery - the local ones charge 40 - 50%..

[DiscoPants]

who buys new instruments made by today's luthiers? I mean professional instruments rather than student ones.

I was chatting to a luthier about this. He said that some professionals (who travel a lot) might prefer a modern instrument as there is no worrying about cracks opening in different temperature/humidity/aircon environments. Though maybe they'd prefer an old instrument with no cracks?

It's one (relatively minor) reason.
Most people who buy contemporary instruments do so because they think they are (much) better value for money.

[michael N]

I've yet to find a Shop that only takes 10% commission. Not saying that they don't exist but I think it would be highly unusual for them to charge that for a modern maker. Valuable old instruments may be a different matter,10% of an instrument that is priced at 50 or 100K can be a substantial amount of money. One of the lowest that I've come across is The Early Music Shop, who charge around 25% - they have to charge VAT on the commission, not on the total selling price. I've also come across some that charge 40% and even one that wanted 50%. Note that these are commission prices, not buying an instrument outright! Usually you are required to sign a waver. Your instrument may have next to no insurance cover whilst it is in the shop but again that may vary dependent on the particular shop. If anything untoward happens to it, you can be seriously out of pocket.
As for new instruments, the demand is certainly there. It's just not enough to keep every Luthier who wants to be one in full time employment. Not even close. Prices for modern luthier made Violins can vary enormously, from some hobby maker charging a couple of hundred quid (to cover materials) right through to some of the well known professionals who can get around ?30K +.
There's a lot of shades in between!

[DiscoPants]

I'm sure you could find a dealer that charged 100% commission if you really tried hard enough.

[michael N]

I have. Me.

[Claudia's Mum]

Thank you for the further helpful information. May I ask who the well regarded current luthiers might be or at least which country they are in?

[DiscoPants]

Thank you for the further helpful information. May I ask who the well regarded current luthiers might be or at least which country they are in?

If you're interested in new violins and you're within travelling distance of London, it would be worth visiting the BVMA Makers' Day on March 4th.

http://www.bvma.org.uk/events.html


There are plenty of good makers in the UK.

[Claudia's Mum]

Thank you for the further helpful information. May I ask who the well regarded current luthiers might be or at least which country they are in?

If you're interested in new violins and you're within travelling distance of London, it would be worth visiting the BVMA Makers' Day on March 4th.

http://www.bvma.org.uk/events.html


There are plenty of good makers in the UK.

We are in London so that's very interesting, thanks! Will go to that.