LCM diplomas in general, by thesis in particular Options

[jonathanquinn]

I'm not in a position to begin work for an LCM diploma by thesis at the moment as I am just finishing a PhD, but it's something I've been wanting to do for a while. I started out wanting to be a professional musician but gave up because I wasn't very good at the practical side and not much better at the rest (got a B in A-level music). This is why the thesis diplomas appealed to me: I have good qualifications in philosophy, theology, and ancient and modern history, so a thesis on a philosophical, theological, or historical aspect of music would suit me. Three questions:

First, I have gathered that LCM diplomas enjoy less prestige than ABRSM and TCL. However, I know from the world of universities that there are those who will tell you that Oxford and Cambridge are the only universities in the UK worthy of the name, so I wonder whether the same applies to music examination bodies (my first degree was from Oxford, so I have no axe to grind here, apart from still reeling from the observations of one extremely distinguished Oxford don to the effect that my postgraduate qualifications from the University of London were of sub-undergraduate standard). I would say that ABRSM, TCL, and LCM would be the bodies I would look at: I know there are others, but I don't believe they have met the same accreditation standards.

Secondly, how likely is it that I could go straight into FLCM. I know that exemption from ALCM and LLCM is possible, and given that I have a BA and two MAs, and I am about to finish a PhD, I wonder whether they would consider that I was capable of going straight into FLCM, which is, after all, only set at master's standard.

Thirdly, how "unmusical" a thesis would they accept? I am very knowledgeable about music in a rather general way, but could never get my head around the intricacies of harmony and counterpoint and all the other things that proper musicologists can do. My proposed subject would be something, as I say, in the area of philosophical, theological, or historical approaches to music, conceptually, or to a particular musical subject.

[jonathanquinn]

PS: I note that the FMusTCL thesis is only 12,000 words, whereas FLCM is recommended to be 25,000-30,000, which seems to me a large disparity for qualifications supposedly of equivalent standard. The FLCM would therefore seem like more of a challenge to work towards.

[mel2]

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I hadn't heard of diplomas by thesis, but having googled it, see that it is indeed an option.

If you have the time, the funds and the inclination for this then I'm sure you realise the best thing to do is to contact the various boards and put your proposal to them and see if they bite.

Nobody else has responded (so far) so it must be an unusual option; however most people posting on this forum appear to work towards Performance/Recital or teaching diplomas.

Would you still be interested if you had to do A and/or L level before doing the F?

[jonathanquinn]

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If you have the time, the funds and the inclination for this then I'm sure you realise the best thing to do is to contact the various boards and put your proposal to them and see if they bite.

Would you still be interested if you had to do A and/or L level before doing the F?

Thanks very much.

Yes, I am sure that contacting the board is the best thing, but at this very early stage, when I am not really in a position to get down to work on it properly, I don't want to muddy the waters by contacting a chief examiner with an enquiry that is still very unformed: better to take an informal sounding on a forum like this so that I have a better idea what to say to the official people.

The problems with doing the A and L before the F would be (a) more money to spend on examinations, whereas I would rather just fork out the once for the FLCM exam rather than have to pay for the lower levels first, (b) it would mean finding three separate research projects, © as I understand it the ALCM is roughly second-year undergraduate standard, the LLCM roughly undergraduate dissertation standard, the FLCM roughly master's standard, so given that I have a BA and two MAs already, nearly a PhD finished, have given umpteen papers at universities up and down the country, and have taught up to final year BA level then to start again at the level a 19/20-year-old could manage would seem a bit pointless. I apologise if that sounds a bit arrogant, but I know where my strengths lie.

[mrbouffant]

If I had a PhD, I'm not sure I would bother with a 'lowly' FLCM. What is your motivation?

[Neumer]

I'd email the chief examiner Philip Aldred ( Philip.Aldred@uwl.ac.uk ). I got a pretty speedy reply from him regarding something similiar, and can confirm that you can indeed enter directly at LLCM and FLCM levels with certain qualifications.

Nothing wrong with the standard of the thesis exams incidentally, they are challenging, and relatively cost effective. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All the best.

N

[jonathanquinn]

If I had a PhD, I'm not sure I would bother with a 'lowly' FLCM. What is your motivation?

My undergraduate degree was in philosophy, theology, and modern history (there's a long story behind that), my MA degrees in theology and ancient history respectively (another long story), and PhD (when I finish it) in history. While I am sufficiently interested in my closely connected range of academic interests to have worked up to PhD level they have never been my first love. Originally I wanted to be a professional musician, but I failed to gain entry to the RAM, RCM, and RNCM, and my A-level music combined with next to no keyboard skills (I learned some grade 5 pieces for the auditions) ruled out any serious future as a musicologist, so I plumped for what I was best at, even though I didn't enjoy it nearly as much. Given my enduring passion for music I thought that it would be nice, when I have the time, to give myself the satisfaction of undertaking a major piece of academic work in the field I really love and to have the satisfaction of having a qualification to prove it. Also, I don't really plan to have a long-term career as an academic and I am thinking about trying to get into arts administration (yes, I know that's the frying pan into the fire as far as the employment market goes), so I thought that if I was working towards, or had completed, a music diploma, it could hardly count against me. I wouldn't have thought that the FLCM diploma was considered "lowly", is it?! After all, it is supposedly equivalent to the dissertation component of the MMus degree, and in fact at 25,000-30,000 words it would be longer than both my MA dissertations stuck together, I would reckon it to be more equivalent to a one-year master's degree by research.

[jonathanquinn]

Nothing wrong with the standard of the thesis exams incidentally, they are challenging, and relatively cost effective. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers. Useful information. Incidentally, I'm not the least bit snobbish about universities and so on: I did my first degree at Oxford because I was railroaded into it by my headmaster, other teachers, and the odd clergyman I knew, and while it might be an exaggeration to say that I hated every moment I was there I certainly hated most of it was relieved to come to London for my graduate study. My contempt for academic snobbery was, as I said above, consolidated when I was told that my first London MA was beneath Oxford BA standard. I'll have anyone know that it was based on a 3x3-hour exams, a portfolio of 9x3,000-word essays, 2x1-hour seminar papers with written follow-up, and a 15,000-word dissertation, which is considerably more work than they have to do for an Oxford master's degree, and the whole course was taught by two distinguished scholars, unlike my BA course, half of which was taught by a DPhil student. However, I had gathered that LCM exams were somewhat looked down upon in some circles, so I wanted to check what others thought. I know that there are a number of organisations that seem to exist solely for the purpose of awarding postnominal letters and academic dress, so I perhaps excessively cautious about checking which ones are legit and which are a bit dodgy.

[Neumer]

I would reckon it to be more equivalent to a one-year master's degree by research.

Spot on I'd say. Not lowly at all. I'd also say there are plenty of overlapping areas between your MA and PhD studies and any potential FLCM thesis, historical musicology, sociological and theological music issues. I'm sure with your previous study it wouldn't be too hard to find an acceptable and specific topic to satisfy the requirements of the grade.

N

However, I had gathered that LCM exams were somewhat looked down upon in some circles, so I wanted to check what others thought. I know that there are a number of organisations that seem to exist solely for the purpose of awarding postnominal letters and academic dress, so I perhaps excessively cautious about checking which ones are legit and which are a bit dodgy.

I was too, but found that there are no serious alternatives to a diploma by thesis. London College of Music and the University of West London are well respected. OK, perhaps not so much as others, but snobbery is snobbery, and instead of a spoon fed expensive Masters, you can feasibly gain a decent fellowship diploma for a fraction of the cost. Having to organise your own study, and possibly a potential supervisor, can only be looked on very, very favourably by any future employer or academic institution.

N

[jonathanquinn]

London College of Music and the University of West London are well respected. OK, perhaps not so much as others, but snobbery is snobbery ...

And of course, it all depends in which field you are working. I have a certain amount of contact with the world of psychotherapy (another alternative career path I'm consider post PhD), and I've heard a lot more good things about the training course at the University of East London than I have about the training course at Oxford.

Thanks for your replies. Once the PhD is finished and I have some idea where my future career is headed I'll give this serious consideration.

[mrbouffant]

Spot on I'd say. Not lowly at all.

'lowly' was put in quotes to emphasise that I was making the comment relative to a PhD.
Sorry if you missed that.

[Alicia Ocean]

The syllabus currently displayed on the LCM website says it's for 2006-11. You might want to check it's still valid. I was looking at this late last year and the imminent expiry date put me off as I though it better to wait and see what the 2012 syllabus offers - but it's still the old document that's displayed there.

[jonathanquinn]

Hello again, all. Thanks again for replies last time. I was in touch with the chief examiner and he was helpful. Apparently I cannot go in straight for FLCM as I have no higher education level music qualification. Not what I was hoping for, but I suppose it might be interesting to have a stab at two different dissertations.

Just a question to follow up: the chief examiner emphasised that I must understand that the dissertation must be on a musical topic. I am wondering whether anybody has any guesses as to what he had in mind (he did not seem to wish to enter into a protracted debate on the subject). From the tone of the message (notwithstanding that it was prompt, helpful, and polite -- just in case he happens to read this forum!) I wondered whether he thought that I was proposing to submit a dissertation on horticulture or biochemistry. The main topic that I have in mind is an exploration of the question whether different art forms can be called higher and lower and whether music in particular can be called the highest. I would also be curious to see whether one could make a particular case for one composer being, according to some objective criteria, the highest expression of music. I would mean to approach this from a philosophical perspective, not a purely qualitative comparison based on personal experience. I am also interested in the question of whether religious belief affects aesthetic positions on different art forms and on music in particular (to spin off the famous saying about the head of the Madonna and the head of cabbage, does a religious believer hold that a bad hymn is worth more than a good symphony?). Would these seem to the man on the Clapham omnibus to be musical subjects?

[miffy]

What are these thesis diplomas? Do you have a link to them?

[Alicia Ocean]

The main topic that I have in mind is an exploration of the question whether different art forms can be called higher and lower and whether music in particular can be called the highest. I would also be curious to see whether one could make a particular case for one composer being, according to some objective criteria, the highest expression of music. I would mean to approach this from a philosophical perspective, not a purely qualitative comparison based on personal experience. I am also interested in the question of whether religious belief affects aesthetic positions on different art forms and on music in particular (to spin off the famous saying about the head of the Madonna and the head of cabbage, does a religious believer hold that a bad hymn is worth more than a good symphony?). Would these seem to the man on the Clapham omnibus to be musical subjects?

Wouldn't it be safer to just do a biography?

What are these thesis diplomas? Do you have a link to them?

http://preview.uwl.ac.uk/files/LCM/lcm_exa..._dip_thesis.pdf