Is 3/8 compound time or simple time? Options

[Roseau]

I thought that 3/8 was simple time because you would divide each quaver beat into semi-quavers (ie into 2, whereas 6/8 is compound because each dotted crotchet beat can be divided into 3 quavers). However, I am teaching English to some French music students and they all spontaneously said that it was compound time because the three quavers added up to a dotted crotchet.

I am inclined to think that they are right as they are very good players (as in at least 1st diploma) and as this is France they have done a lot of theory as well but part of me is not convinced since you would then theoretically only have 1 beat in a bar. Or am I missing something obvious? *confused* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Aquarelle]

There exists a sort of bible for French music theory ? well, at least where I live. It is known as the ?Danhauser? after the person who wrote it. Personally I find it of very little use as you can be sure if there is a complicated way of explaining things it will be in this book. However, I have just read the thread so looked up ?mesures simples? et mesures composees? in it.

The rule seems to be that if the sum of the values forming each beat can be divided by 2 then the time is simple. The rule for compound time is that the sum of the values of each beat should add up to a dotted note and therefore the beat is divisible by 3. This is what has been said above. However the question remains as to whether in that case 3/8 is simple triple with quaver beats or compound time with one dotted crotchet beat to the bar. The Danhauser then goes on to give examples and it does not include 3/8 in the examples of compound time but in the table on page 89 of my copy 3/8 appears as simple time and the corresponding compound time has three dotted quavers as the beats ? which is 9/16.

So I think Roseau?s students have misunderstood their theory lessons. They were probably just told that in compound time the beat is a dotted note and can be divided into three equal parts so they then assumed that this applied to 3/8 - but Mr Danhauser does not seem to be of the opinion that this applies to the dotted crotchet which would fill a bar in 3/8

[linda.ff]

There exists a sort of bible for French music theory ? well, at least where I live. It is known as the ?Danhauser? after the person who wrote it. Personally I find it of very little use as you can be sure if there is a complicated way of explaining things it will be in this book.

I think there are many here who will have decided that I wrote it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

However, I have just read the thread so looked up ?mesures simples? et mesures composees? in it.

The rule seems to be that if the sum of the values forming each beat can be divided by 2 then the time is simple. The rule for compound time is that the sum of the values of each beat should add up to a dotted note and therefore the beat is divisible by 3. This is what has been said above. However the question remains as to whether in that case 3/8 is simple triple with quaver beats or compound time with one dotted crotchet beat to the bar. The Danhauser then goes on to give examples and it does not include 3/8 in the examples of compound time but in the table on page 89 of my copy 3/8 appears as simple time and the corresponding compound time has three dotted quavers as the beats ? which is 9/16.

So I think Roseau?s students have misunderstood their theory lessons. They were probably just told that in compound time the beat is a dotted note and can be divided into three equal parts so they then assumed that this applied to 3/8 - but Mr Danhauser does not seem to be of the opinion that this applies to the dotted crotchet which would fill a bar in 3/8

It seems to me that this entire question hangs on the notion of whether you can divide music into bars of a single beat. (This is regardless of how the conductor beats it - after all, if you play Greensleeves (notated in 6/8) slowly and the conductor is beating every quaver, and you're in a fancy arrangement where those quavers subdivide into 2 semiquavers each, are you then in simple time?)

One of the things I often say to my pupils is that while time is measured in seconds and minutes (hours, days etc) and length in - well, nowadays - metres, a lot of us can remember feet and inches - music is measured in beats and bars. This usually comes up after a child has ventured to tell me that a minim lasts for two seconds! For my part, I doubt that bars can contain just one beat each, they would surely then need to be grouped together under a bigger measurement? but maybe this is why it's called theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

For my part, I doubt that bars can contain just one beat each, they would surely then need to be grouped together under a bigger measurement? but maybe this is why it's called theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think Beethoven disagreed with you. Look at the scherzo of the 9th symphony: at bar 177, he gives the instruction "Ritmo de tre battute" and at 234 "Ritmo de quattro battute". It is obvious from the music that each "battuta" corresponds to a bar, as the passage from 177 to 233 inclusive consists of a succession of three-bar phrases.

[linda.ff]

For my part, I doubt that bars can contain just one beat each, they would surely then need to be grouped together under a bigger measurement? but maybe this is why it's called theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think Beethoven disagreed with you. Look at the scherzo of the 9th symphony: at bar 177, he gives the instruction "Ritmo de tre battute" and at 234 "Ritmo de quattro battute". It is obvious from the music that each "battuta" corresponds to a bar, as the passage from 177 to 233 inclusive consists of a succession of three-bar phrases.

Yes, but does a "beat" as given by a conductor, equate to a "beat" as written in a bar?

[owainsutton]

Yes, but does a "beat" as given by a conductor, equate to a "beat" as written in a bar?

A beat is what we feel as the pulse. The role of a conductor is to make sure this happens - many great conductors indicate NO beats for bars at a time, when the moment justifies it. They trust the ensemble to do the job, and indicate other things.

A beat, as in Beethoven or Elgar, can last several bars, and there's nothing strange about it. The semibreve is a subdivision of the breve/brevis, itself a subdivision of the longa. In these terms, we are still always beating subdivisions, whether the 'beat' is a quaver or four bars of semibreves.