Dyslexia and difficulties reading music - particularly sightreading, do they go together? Options

[jod]

There have been a number of threads where pupils have been described as 'dead wood' or behaving so badly that the teacher wants to sack them.

The possibilty of SEN or hormones does not appear to cross the OPs mind.

As a teacher who takes other teachers rejects, many of whom have statements of SEN, I will draw this possibity to the attention of teachers who may not have asked that question. That is all.

[Sunrise]

But I do agree that all 1-2-1 teaching is effectively special needs teaching. Tailored to the individual and supporting them in exactly what they need to succeed.

I think we need to be quite careful of this: certainly, everyone has their own individual needs (including adult pupils too), but the term 'special needs' is used (possibly quite wrongly) to describe somone who has a 'condition' for want of a better term (i.e. they have something 'wrong' with them). Personally, I would not want to be describing my teaching as 'special needs teaching' because of the connotations that term now has. My teaching philosophy states that 'Being aware of their [the pupils] capabilities, their needs and their past experiences, teaching builds on their interests in a collaborative and mutually supportive way' - I would be happy to leave it at that.

Agreed - I used the wrong term...every one is different, and yes, it's teaching to an individual's strengths and weaknesses.

[Maria]

There have been a number of threads where pupils have been described as 'dead wood' or behaving so badly that the teacher wants to sack them.

The possibilty of SEN or hormones does not appear to cross the OPs mind.

As a teacher who takes other teachers rejects, many of whom have statements of SEN, I will draw this possibity to the attention of teachers who may not have asked that question. That is all.

The OP here said nothing derogatory about her pupil whatsoever. She's simply asked for a bit of advice which has prompted a healthy discussion.

Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.

[Seer_Green]

Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.

[Louise H]

Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.

I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.

[Sunrise]

Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.

I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.

Absolutely! I just knew that he was having similar problems to my dyslexic pupil and wondered if they were possibly linked. I know the child very well, he often comes to play at our house so I know there isn't anything behavioural there (he often behaves better than my one!!)...that is not what I asked.

[jod]

Re-read the posts. No-one is suggesting that they don't want to teach pupils with SEN. Many are simply expressing a concern that there is a tendency on here to jump to the conclusion that anyone who is struggling a bit with lessons - which could be for a variety of reasons - has SEN.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
It is quite wrong to get into a situation where every time there is a glimmer of a pupil finding something tricky, we immediately start shouting SEN, SEN, SEN... If you're a teacher who is an SEN specialist in another area, then that's possibly a different scenario, but for most of us that isn't the case. I'm engaged to teach an instrument, not to diagnose SEN problems.

I agree too. Some pupils will find a particular aspect of learning difficult and it's the teacher's role to try different ways of helping them work through whatever it is and find different ways to approach it. People think differently and work/learn in different ways - it's important to find the key or several different keys to helping them break through.

Absolutely! I just knew that he was having similar problems to my dyslexic pupil and wondered if they were possibly linked. I know the child very well, he often comes to play at our house so I know there isn't anything behavioural there (he often behaves better than my one!!)...that is not what I asked.

I know you didn't. I'm glad you have things sorted.

There was nothing wrong in asking the question, and I'm sure the father would have had no problems with you asking given your role.

I have asked parents about the last time they had their children's sight checked based on how they were behaving in a music lesson only to find the pupil sporting a brand new pair of spectacles by the next lesson.

It isn't a case of being obsessed it is a case of illiminated causes of behaviour and difficulties that are outside routine obtuse behaviour.

There is nothing more frustrating as a child than having a real problem and being accused of 'just being naughty' or worse, where the correct intervention would make your life so much easier.

As adults we do need to be aware of that, be aware of the emotional impact that negative labelling has, and treat children with the respect they deserve. Especially if we are in the education business.

Also do remember the Gifted and Talented child is also a Special Educational Need, it is not all about Specific Learning Difficulties.

I suppose being a teacher who deals with children from the spectrum, being in the spectrum myself and being a mother to children in the spectrum I am acutely aware about what happens when things go wrong as I do hear the horror stories. I am there with the tissues when somebody labels another mother's child as 'unteachable' and I have to pick up the pieces of the heartache, then the question comes, can you teach him/her? The answer is always yes. I always find a way. I don't give up on people because I keep thinking that at the end of the day, that child could be mine, and I remember the tears.

I do teach children and adults who count as mainstream too. However, as I don't turn people away because they might be awkward customers. If they are a challenge it is my job to find the route in. I'll loose some. There will be some who really can't be bothered. The can't be bothered set are in the minority. My job is to inspire and enthuse. To pass on the skills those who set that seed of inspiration in me and gave me that opportunity to another set of people. Put like that it is very humbling, but so worthwhile.

[anacrusis]

I would agree with Seer_Green about his first long post, as it happens - though the point of mentioning SEN at all comes when a teacher is struggling to find the right strategy for a pupil. I must admit, when a teacher, especially one saying they have experience but don't know what to do with this case, comes to the forum with a problem, I'm generally assuming they've covered the obvious and the basics already, and found they can't get round the difficulty with this particular pupil. Perhaps that is a wrong assumption, I don't know.

So what is the point of mentioning SEN at all, if it's wrong to jump to it as a first conclusion? It's because the SEN teaching situation requires extraordinary approaches, quite possibly in addition to, but sometimes instead of, standard ones which should be in most teachers' repertoires already. In the case of a previously-mentioned bit of poor behaviour from a child, a teacher was asking for advice, and by and large the contributions covered standard stuff: I'd spotted two clues in the original story which set off warning bells in my mind, and chose to think a bit beyond that standard stuff.

Why do I care? You'll probably have guessed there'll be a reason for this being closer to my heart than just a pure professional interest: I've had permission from my son to talk about it, indeed he wants his story to be heard, and he's just about to hit eighteen years of age. He's always been a lateral thinker, very bright, very articulate, but struggled to write things down, and over the years his difficulty became more and more marked. His big skill is computing, but he's also musical: at eleven he developed diabetes, and for years we were putting his concentration difficulties down to blood sugar levels being all over the shop, as often happens in teenagers with the condition. He's also like his father, a bit ditsy: in conversation both of them would jump from topic to topic, and holding a thread with them is not easy.

At fifteen, he dropped out of school, started refusing to go, and the problem got worse and worse til he stopped. Every strategy suggested was tried - be nice to him, be nasty, take away the computer, remove privileges, reward the good behaviours, all the stuff everyone suggests for bad behaviour on here too - none of it worked, and for a year and a half we wore ourselves ragged, getting up earlier and earlier to start the job of trying to get him to school. If he did go, he didn't write anything down - mostly he sat and doodled, but would get bolshie if teachers got heavy on him, and instead of leaving him alone, some of them began to humiliate him in various ways. Eventually he left school, that year early, and went to college, where, treated as an adult, he completed a years' course with flying colours, then embarked on an HNC one...where there were written assignments, and failed. At this point a tutor said, get him assessed, there's a problem: and there is: he has the inattention form of Attention Deficit Disorder. At this point I can see all the traditionalists curling their upper lips and going fffft.... but note, it's a learning disorder, there's a treatment, it needs different management from standard strategies, and this lad's education landed up in tatters because it wasn't spotted. I didn't spot it because I lived with it every day, and anyway, his dad's like that, so it's normal, isn't it? School didn't spot it because they were focused on the problem of an Inconvenient Child. My extended family on both sides was on at me about my parenting skills, or apparent lack of them, unable to see that the other child is jumping through all the educational hoops "correctly".

My son has probably in large part educated himself, and benefited most from the approach I had of opportunistic learning at home, with my two - if they asked a question, we'd investigate together: we made things together too. He's built his own computer, is exceedingly skilled with computer graphics, and at sixteen joined a group of other likeminded souls met over the internet, developing a video editing programme together. He's been to a couple of expenses-paid conferences in the US on the back of that too. The consultant assessing him says that had it not been for his intelligence, and for the support he got from home, his outlook and general situation would have been pretty poor - he's managed to compensate for his difficulties, but it's not been straightforward for any of us.

So - okay, maybe don't jump to SEN as the first port of call, but actually, that doesn't exonerate any of us from a need to keep it in mind. It's not that rare, it's often missed, and above all, it needs different approaches to get things right for that child: besides which, as someone has already said, individualisation of approach is a luxury the one-to-one teacher enjoys: or should enjoy. Otherwise, in my mind, it's questionable as to whether they should be teaching.

[jod]

Thank you for sharing your son's story Anacrusis, it was courageous of both of you.

It does sound so familiar with the stories I have heard from the parents of kids I have taught, and of my own experiences.

The term 'Special Educational Needs' says it all. These will be people at the extremes, the vast majority of pupils one comes accross will not be, whether they have a specific learning difficulty or are Gifted and Talented.

When my kids were tiny the number of parents who liked to tell me how smart their 'little Johnny' was. However they looked they did not look like that they had been run ragged by their off-spring who needed constant stimulation and high level tasks.

Being unkind I could have said, '...and pigs might fly!', especially as I watched them play.

Other parents whose children were slow were desparate to have a dyslexic kid, then I saw the one or two kid who genuinly was dyslexic, and realised that kid is being held back due to a SLD, the other one is just thick or lazy.

The same is true when dealing with pupils. Some won't be bothered, yet just sometimes, there is a reason. That is why the question is worth asking. Knowing the frustration from being there (remember by being higher functioning dyslexic which was not picked up until I was 18 I count as SLD and G&T) and watching my own children deal with how other children and adults have dealt with my own children (Matthew in particular), not spotting Special Educational Needs and assuming that a person is plain awkward is heart breaking.

As teachers we need to be sympathetic to the needs of our pupils and then act accordingly. After all teaching is as much a vocation as it is a job.

[Bagpuss]

Surely EVERY single pupe has "Special Educational Needs" - as each one is different?! Once you start attaching labels then that's when the rot sets in. I've had a couple of "Gifted and Talented" pupils who, sadly, were neither but had been "labelled" by their respective schools. This resulted in an over-inflated opinion of their own abilities - it was a dreadful situation for me as the parents' expectations got off on the wrong foot.

I was chatting to one of my Year 13s this week - who is dyslexic. The pupe mentioned that when her (academic) performance isn't where expected (her own expectation) she tends to "blame" it on her dyslexia and went on to say that had she never been diagnosed would she have just got on with it with a different attitude? A mature comment I thought with no right answer. Coincidentally her dyslexia has never caused her problems with reading music.

I've never had two dyslexic pupes who have the SAME problems musically anymore than the "normal" ones. I have a delightful Year 3 pupe who has been labelled recently with goodness' knows how many different difficulties....but, hey, said pupe is the only one in the class who can play the flute....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And well said, S_G, for articulating the thoughts of many of us so early on in this thread.

Bx

[Maria]

Bagpuss, my husband is dyslexic and wasn't diagnosed til 21, when he was at the end of his music degree. He subsequently went on to do an MMus and a PGCE. It would, no doubt, have been beneficial for him to be diagnosed earlier but the flip side is that he found a range of strategies himself to overcome the difficulties he faced.

I agree that, while everyone has individual needs, there are certainly those with greater needs who would fall under the category of SEN. These students absolutely need additional support. As I've probably said already, our school has a great SEN department with attached Dyslexia Support Unit, which deals with pupils from our school and from surrounding schools. This allows many pupils with significant SEN - varying degrees of ASD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, visual and hearing impairments, Downs Syndrome - to succeed in a mainstream school. This is vital to our school, to those pupils and their parents and to the teachers who would find it very difficult to cope with these pupils unsupported in a class of 30.

Anacruis, your story about this is awful and I'm pleased it's worked out so well for your son. The objection I have is not to asking questions about SEN, but the tendency over recent posts to jump to a conclusion about SEN with very little information. (I'm not referring to OP of this particular thread here who simply raised a question.) For every child with dyslexia, there will be three who are just slow readers. For every child with ADD, there will be three who are just poorly behaved. For every child who has ASD... You get the gist. It is crucial to diagnose the kids who do have SEN and who do need help, but I am concerned that any child who doesn't exactly fit the mould is now touted to have SEN. Sometimes they don't and we are not in a position, on a forum, to diagnose or suggest diagnosis.

I do agree with Bagpuss, especially in the context of one to one learning, that every child has individual needs, whether they're recognised SEN or simply 'regular' needs. It's more necessary in a school context, where there are 30 kids in a room, to be aware of those with particular needs. When you see each child individually then surely you're much more able to cater to those needs on an individual basis.

From my own observations, I worry for the kids in the middle - not SEN of any kind, no learning difficulties or perceived G&T traits - who seem to fall through the gaps a little bit. I sometimes wish there was more time to spend with these kids who appear to 'fit the mould' but who will no doubt have particular needs of their own.

[jod]

Maria you summed it up well.

Every child is special. Just ask their parents.

Every child has individual learning needs.

The term Special Educational Needs however is a specific term applied to those with Specific Learning Difficulties or those who are Gifted and Talented.

Thinking about my own kids they do not have an over-inflated opinion of themselves, they have had problems relating to their peers as thing they believe are very obvious are not to children who do not share their abilities. This does cause resentment, but neither of them understand that (this particularly was the case when they were younger).

As for the kids in the middle. I know lots of those, and they are great. There is not any need to feel sorry for them as the world is largly geared up for them. As long as you remember they are somebodies son or daughter and therefore important and special as a person, as a teacher you'll be fine, and so will they.

[linda.ff]

Bagpuss, my husband is dyslexic and wasn't diagnosed til 21, when he was at the end of his music degree.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) About two weeks before I did my music degree in 1969 I was finally diagnosed with keratoconus - not a mental thing, but physical: it's a progressive malformed cornea and the most obvious symptom for me was that, unless I was squinting, I saw a six-line stave and melodies were a row of thirds. One of my tutors refused to believe there was something genuinely wrong and said I wanted not to be able to see as an excuse for failing to reach my potential. He did have the very good grace to say afterwards "Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad to hear there's something wrong with your eyes, because everything seemed to point to the fact that you were just putting it on, or at least it was something psychosomatic"

[jod]

I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.

This is why as soon as a teacher claims somebody is 'unteachable', I suggest it as a possibilty worth considering. (Particularly given the type of behaviour being reported).

[Seer_Green]

I think what all of these recent posts demonstrate from first hand experience is that although the vast majority of pupils will be in the so called 'normal spectrum', when you are actually outside it can be quite distressing, and being written off is not pleasant.

But I can't see where anyone has suggested they be written off - in fact, the OP was suggesting something quite different. Even in the other thread about the 'dead wood' (which was sadly closed) they weren't being written off.