Organist retiring... Options

[Pianotimes]

or not as the case may be...
I'm a member of a local church who currently has an organist who plays every week for the services. When she is on holiday I fill in for free. (about five times a year). She currently gets an honarium payment for her time, although the last couple of years has declined to take it.
I have now heard on the grapevine that she has announced that she no longer wishes to play for evening services, presumably continuing with the mornings and the weddings and funerals, which she gets extra payment for.
There are some other issues going on here, and evening services are poorly attended at the moment. One of the questions I have though is what to do if I am asked to play for the evening services, which seems quite likely.
I would love to be involved but don't want to be taken for granted. I already do lots of voluntary hours, church stewarding, running the brownies and helping with the toddlers group. I work as a piano teacher, and want to do a professional job. Can I really just say 'yes ok if you'll pay me?' Am I being unrealistic to expect to be paid? Any advice or experience?

[Susie]

You're right to approach with caution.

As a professional musician you are also within your rights to ask for payment, especially as you say, you will need to do a professional job. The flip-side is that if you remain on a voluntary footing, you can walk away more easily if the need arises.

My husband used to do 2 mattins services a month at our local Anglican church and he was paid for these. He still does 1 Sunday morning service at the other Anglican church nearby and is paid for this. He is not taken for granted by the other organist (who set up the mini rota to give herself a bit of down-time). For the record, my husband is not an organist by profession, but does have organist qualifications and strives to do a good job.

Perhaps only you can decide whether you'll be taken for granted, and whether this will grow out of proportion. We find this can be the case at our Catholic church, where we are volunteers, and so we have recently taken steps to limit our involvement a bit.

[mrbouffant]

If you are already an organist, then yes you should definitely charge. However, if you are pianist who won't be playing the pedals, then I wonder if it is the right thing to do. After all, you will be gaining experience and learning on the job, so would it be right to charge until you are playing the instrument properly?

[fsharpminor]

I play morning services for nothing, having at one time asked for payment at the same church.
My arrangement is that I will play for as many as I am available, and can have a church key so I can go in mid week and practise if I wish (I rarely do). When Im not availble they have two people who can play manuals only of a Clavinova. But then Im not a professional musician, though well qualified.

[Swell Box]

If you start the job on an unpaid basis you will find it very difficult to go back cap in hand when your duties increase. Working free gratis also makes things difficult for other professionals who may need the money more than you do.

If you really don't want to be paid for playing I would suggest that you accept the stipend and simply give it back to the church via the offering plate.

In my view it is wrong for the incumbent organist to 'cherry pick' weddings, funerals and other profitable services, and then to expect a volunteer to play for services that do not warrant payment.

SB

[Barry Williams]

These days the majority of church organists are employees. In these circumstances, the minimum payment is the National Minimum Wage.

In respect of anyone who is not an independent contractor, one can either be a volunteer and have genuine (i.e not round sum or flat rate) expenses reimbursed, or be paid the National Minimum Wage. There is no alternative.

It is not wrong to expect payment, for learning to play the organ is an expensive business and, in any event, the labourer is worthy of his (or her) hire.

Barry Williams

[Barry Toner]

The Royal School of Church Music takes an interest in this matter and tries to set fair (for both sides) expectations of payment depending on level of committment and expertise required. Their web site gives guidelines which I know others have found helpful. Unfortunately, you need to be an affiliate or individual member to get the exact rates, but the page indicated has lots of good advice.

[oldromola]

I feel very strongly about this issue. I play about twice a month at our local village Church and am paid per service. The previous organist was a 'converted pianist' and chose not to ask for payment but, from the outset, I asked for this arrangement and it was accepted without question. Like you I help out with, and enjoy, other activities within the life of the Church on a voluntary basis.

On two occasions in the quite recent past I have deputised at a large, thriving Church with a comprehensive 3 manual instrument at their 9.00 am services. No offer of payment was made, so when I was asked for the third occasion I enquired about payment. Their administrator sent me an email saying that 'never in her 30 years involvement at the Church had they ever paid a deputy organist'. I declined to play.

Now their argument is the well known one and it goes something like this; if God has given you a musical talent then in return you should offer whatever ability you have FREELY in His service. Well, God may have given the likes of Mozart, Shostakovich and Leonard Bernstein a ready made musical talent but He certainly didn't give me one. I had to spend thousands of pounds on my musical education together with many hundreds of hours practising in cold damp Churches to be the reasonable organist I am today.

Mr Bouffant makes a good point about maybe not asking for payment whislt you are learning the trade, but I suspect from what you have told us that your playing is already competent. Furthermore as Swell Box has said 'If you start the job on an unpaid basis you will find it very difficult to go back cap in hand' In my opinion that alone makes a very strong case for payment.

[Barry Williams]

"Now their argument is the well known one and it goes something like this; if God has given you a musical talent then in return you should offer whatever ability you have FREELY in His service. Well, God may have given the likes of Mozart, Shostakovich and Leonard Bernstein a ready made musical talent but He certainly didn't give me one. I had to spend thousands of pounds on my musical education together with many hundreds of hours practising in cold damp Churches to be the reasonable organist I am today."

This argument implies that one has a talent that enable performance without training. Even Mozart and Bach needed training!" Someone has to pay for that training. God gave me natural talent for only one thing and that was not music. (Even then I needed training.) I have paid for every penny of my musical training and it had been very much more expensive than getting a pilot's licence.

I do hope that churches and clergy will drop the 'talent' argument forever. It is so unbiblical

Barry Williams

[violinlove]

I do hope that churches and clergy will drop the 'talent' argument forever. It is so unbiblical

Not only is it unbiblical, it is also passive-aggressive emotional blackmail.
I find it thoroughly offensive - why is it applied to music like that? What about people who have a God-given talent for caring for others - should they then become a nurse but not expect payment? What about those who are brilliant at working with young children? Or animals? Should they work for nothing and live in poverty? Ridiculous.

As for Mozart and co, they had paid positions.

To the OP, you should expect to be paid and should say so. If the church then decides that they would prefer to seek out someone who will do the job for nothing, that is up to them.
Ditto for Oldromola's case - if the church have never paid a deputy organist in 30 years then they will have to choose someone to fill this role who does not expect to be paid. It doesn't make it the right thing to do though.

[Pianotimes]

Mr Bouffant makes a good point about maybe not asking for payment whislt you are learning the trade, but I suspect from what you have told us that your playing is already competent. Furthermore as Swell Box has said 'If you start the job on an unpaid basis you will find it very difficult to go back cap in hand' In my opinion that alone makes a very strong case for payment.

Its tricky isn't it. I've been chewing it over and decided to guage the opinion of people here. Yes I feel I do play competantly (at least as well if not better than the current organist). No expert but play a few simple tunes and the hymns confidently. Now I'll admit I haven't yet learnt to pedal (although would be open to learning if I was playing more often, could be fun) but then neither has the current organist whos been playing for however many years! We have a modern electronic organ, I make a reasonable sound and I enjoy it. Nothing compared to what some of you do I know and take my hat off to you. I keep it simple but make sure its done well if that makes sense. We'll see what happens...

[Swell Box]

On two occasions in the quite recent past I have deputised at a large, thriving Church with a comprehensive 3 manual instrument at their 9.00 am services. No offer of payment was made, so when I was asked for the third occasion I enquired about payment. Their administrator sent me an email saying that 'never in her 30 years involvement at the Church had they ever paid a deputy organist'. I declined to play.

I wonder whether their Parish Administrator is paid? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (Ours is, and she recives significantly more renumeration for her four hours per week than most organists do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

Most clergy of my aquaintance are also paid, and have a house provided. Morover, their training is provided free of charge by the diocese, which the Archdeacon is keen to point out when trying to justify our parish share, currently in excess of 100,000 GBP per annum.

If church musicians are expected to work for nothing, why does every other 'professional' in the church expect to be paid?

SB

[BerkshireMum]

On two occasions in the quite recent past I have deputised at a large, thriving Church with a comprehensive 3 manual instrument at their 9.00 am services. No offer of payment was made, so when I was asked for the third occasion I enquired about payment. Their administrator sent me an email saying that 'never in her 30 years involvement at the Church had they ever paid a deputy organist'. I declined to play.

I wonder whether their Parish Administrator is paid? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (Ours is, and she recives significantly more renumeration for her four hours per week than most organists do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

Most clergy of my aquaintance are also paid, and have a house provided. Morover, their training is provided free of charge by the diocese, which the Archdeacon is keen to point out when trying to justify our parish share, currently in excess of 100,000 GBP per annum.

If church musicians are expected to work for nothing, why does every other 'professional' in the church expect to be paid?

SB

They don't! Various members of our church just help. Our church treasurer is an accountant, but doesn't charge the church for his services - he has volunteered to do it. We have on several occasions benefitted from the free legal advice of a member who is a lawyer. We have ladies who cook church lunches for nothing, whose day job involves cooking. We do our own church cleaning. Our organist and music group play for nothing (OK, I admit none of those are professional musicians, but our local parish church has several pro musicians in its music group, and they don't charge the church either).

It depends on how you see your church. To me, it's an extension of the family - how many professionals charge their family for what they do for them? However, I don't say that other people shouldn't see it differently. If you want to ask your church to pay you, you should do so. Then it's up to the church whether or not to accept your offer.

[Barry Williams]

"...how many professionals charge their family for what they do for them? [i]"

How many family members expect a prfoessional person to attend twice, sometimes three times a week to render services by which they ordinarily earn their living? Most organists do not charge church members for weddings and funerals. That is the proper comparison for family matters.


Barry Williams

[mrbouffant]

You can't choose your family, but you can choose which church to play at (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)