Organist retiring... Options

[Swell Box]

On two occasions in the quite recent past I have deputised at a large, thriving Church with a comprehensive 3 manual instrument at their 9.00 am services. No offer of payment was made, so when I was asked for the third occasion I enquired about payment. Their administrator sent me an email saying that 'never in her 30 years involvement at the Church had they ever paid a deputy organist'. I declined to play.

I wonder whether their Parish Administrator is paid? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (Ours is, and she recives significantly more renumeration for her four hours per week than most organists do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) )

Most clergy of my aquaintance are also paid, and have a house provided. Morover, their training is provided free of charge by the diocese, which the Archdeacon is keen to point out when trying to justify our parish share, currently in excess of 100,000 GBP per annum.

If church musicians are expected to work for nothing, why does every other 'professional' in the church expect to be paid?

SB

They don't! Various members of our church just help. Our church treasurer is an accountant, but doesn't charge the church for his services - he has volunteered to do it. We have on several occasions benefitted from the free legal advice of a member who is a lawyer. We have ladies who cook church lunches for nothing, whose day job involves cooking. We do our own church cleaning. Our organist and music group play for nothing (OK, I admit none of those are professional musicians, but our local parish church has several pro musicians in its music group, and they don't charge the church either).

It depends on how you see your church. To me, it's an extension of the family - how many professionals charge their family for what they do for them? However, I don't say that other people shouldn't see it differently. If you want to ask your church to pay you, you should do so. Then it's up to the church whether or not to accept your offer.

My wife, who is also an Accountant, was Church Treasurer in this parish for nearly ten years, and didn't expect a penny. Church Treasurers are generally unpaid, and that is well understood. However, unlike an Organist, she could choose when to do the banking and the accounts, and didn't have to attend services if she didn't want to.

On the other hand, the Parish Administrator here is paid, on the grounds that she has to work regular hours in the parish office as required by the clergy. The clergy are also paid, and housed, and have their expenses paid.

Regarding professionals working for family members; in my experience, most 'professionals' avoid working for 'friends' and family members wherever possible, as it is so easy to fall out over such matters, and frankly, few people can afford to spend their working time providing their services free gratis.

SB

[Martin.Walters]

Its interesting point about God given talent etc vs musical training.. vs payment..

When I go to church, I go to worship God, that is my 1st priority!
I will play if need to be or asked to. Someone has suggested I should be paid for transport.
(sometimes wish I could play in service when the pianist plays a joyful hymn.. like it was played at a funeral :/ )

The only time I would want to be paid is if hired by another denomination.

Its a truly fascinating subject, it goes beyond music to.

[Barry Williams]

There is another aspect of this matter.

Not every organist is in a financial position to donate fees. The best position is for the organist to take the fee and donate it to the church, adding Gift Aid. In that way the donation is confidential, the church gets used to playing the proper rate, ('the labourer is worthy of his hire'), and the church benefits from the Gift Aid.

The only argument against this process is that no-one has a right to be paid. That line is so wholly unscriptural that it is unsupportable in every respect.

There are still places that do not expect to reimburse mileage, let alone pay a fee. In the present climate that is simply unrealistic.

Barry Williams

[Seer_Green]

I've played in Methodist churches for 14 years and have never received a penny in return for this. I understand that the Methodists always take this stance (though I am aware of several Methodist churches who do pay their organists). I did get fees for weddings and funerals, but these were set by the church and were significantly lower than one might expect. When I suggested what I considered proper rates I was told "no one will want to get married here...!".

I also made a suggestion at one point that if they weren't prepared to pay anything, maybe they'd consider making a small contribution towards music etc...you can imagine the horrified faces! An organist at one of the local churches moved away leaving them without music. They couldn't get anyone to volunteer to do it and eventually I was approached with the words "We can't get anyone to do it for free so we think we might need to pay someone...we were thinking about ?2 per service...would you be interested?..." Suffice to say I did not take them up on their offer.

At the end of the day, I could have moved to a paid position but I did enjoy being part of the community there. I wasn't so bothered about a weekly fee, but over the years, I got fed up with the attitude of just spendiing nothing on the music in the church. By the end, if I wanted to choir to have new music I was financing it out of my own pocket. If churches want decent music, then they need to accept that for many of us, it's a professional commitment. I was doing two services a week, choir practice plus other prep - probably at least 5 hours in total. Whilst churches don't like spending the money, their worship will be enhanced no end by having the music dealt with properly and professionally. Shock horror...the provision of good quality music might actually be a good selling point!

[Aquarelle]

A long time ago when I attended a Methodist church the situation was as mentioned above. The organist was not paid for weekly services but only for weddings and funerals. At the time I took it for granted that our organist played for the sheer pleasure of doing it and that she was a committed Christian and giving her talent to the church. It never occurred to me that this was not really on as a general rule. I now know better and in any case times have changed drastically and what people could afford to give in terms of time and talent many years ago is far from the case now. In any case, if you want to give but not undercut other people you can, as Barry Williams says, quietly give the money back to the church.

As far as financing the music, music holders and gowns, was concerned our choir worked as a team - we held jumble sales, coffee mornings, sposored activities of various kinds and gave concerts at which the audience was expected to buy a programme or make a donation. This may not be an option for a top class cathedral choir but it worked for a suburban non-conformist church where the standard of music was at the time as high as could be expected with the resources we had. But then the choirmaster was an ex-naval commander and he stood no nonsense.

[Barry Williams]

".....and he stood no nonsense."

How very important this is in a choir master.

Barry Williams

[Cyrilla]

...(sorry, posted in wrong forum by mistake!)

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[Swell Box]

I spotted this in the Forum Cafe and thought it rather appropriate to this thread.

SB

Not sure where to post this - performers, teachers, all should read it!

http://elisabethhobbs.co.uk/2012/04/16/do-you-work-for-free/

and I loved the reply to the ad at the end of the article !

[limh]

At risk of restarting a thread that was more-or-less over:

I no longer play the organ - the reason is that organs always come with a church attached. It's not that I'm not religious: on the contrary, I do care, and want to go to church to worship, not to play music. In fact when it comes to church music I have difficult feelings: it's often very beautiful music, but it rouses the Suspicious Protestant in me, who worries that he is transported by music, not by God, and therefore would prefer not to have the music...

But I would have liked to carry on playing, and I would have been prepared to pay for my practice time.

Now there are also not enough people learning the organ. It really is running the risk of becoming a dead instrument.

Can I suggest that if more churches were encouraged to hire out the use of their instruments for a sensible fee (without threat of being coerced into playing for services!), they would be able to generate enough cash to pay their "proper" organists to play for the services? They should be proactive! Go out and advertise: we have this organ, come and play it! Better, this would actually encourage more organists to get more beginners interested in playing the instrument. Who knows, some could even increase their income still further by teaching. Of course it's not ideal to be taught by a piano-convertee, but as the number of available players increases, so does the chance of finding a genuine organist rather than a willing pianist.

Just an outsider's view...

[maggiemay]

Writing as an organist who used to teach, and who gave up teaching because getting permission for students (mature, responsible) to practise was well nigh impossible, what can I say ?

[Seer_Green]

Can I suggest that if more churches were encouraged to hire out the use of their instruments for a sensible fee (without threat of being coerced into playing for services!), they would be able to generate enough cash to pay their "proper" organists to play for the services?

Since I got ill nearly three years ago I haven't really been able to play the organ; I did as best I could for a year on the piano, but there were a lot of complaints from the congregation that the piano wasn't suitable (entitled to their opinion, but the alternative was sing unaccompanied). Since we moved, I haven't sought get involved with any church. In many ways, this isn't because I don't want to go to church, but because as soon as you mention anything about music (trying as hard as you can to keep it quiet), you're nearly always pounced on to help out (and I have been practically hounded out of places in the past where I've refused!). I would dearly love to get back to playing the organ for my own enjoyment, but as you quite rightly say, what opportunities are there where there isn't the playing for services attached?

Writing as an organist who used to teach, and who gave up teaching because getting permission for students (mature, responsible) to practise was well nigh impossible, what can I say ?

My previous church allowed the cathedral assistant and organ scholar to practise there (they had their own key) and it worked out fine. Once we'd established things like turning the lights off, locking every door etc. there were no problems. The ridiculous thing was that the cathedral were quite willing to pay for this opportunity, if only towards the upkeep of the organ, but the church refused time and time again to accept any money.

[Barry Williams]

" I would dearly love to get back to playing the organ for my own enjoyment, but as you quite rightly say, what opportunities are there where there isn't the playing for services attached?[i]"

My heart goes out to you, Seer Green.

It is possible to obtain an relatively inexpensive electronic insrument for home practise. That frees one from the need to be associated with a church and thus the sometimes irksome duty of playing for services. If you need assistance in this matter please send a private email and I will do all I can to assist you.

It is a fact of history that organs have become associated with churches. What a pity it is that they were not associated with inns, hostelries and public houses. (That is what my great hero, Oliver Cromwell, preferred! He retained a professional organist.)

Churches do seem to cause a lot of unnecessary grief to people. In the process organists, loyal servants of the church, get hurt and wounded and then prefer not to play. It is so sad but so common.

Barry Williams

[mel2]

they would be able to generate enough cash to pay their "proper" organists to play for the services? They should be proactive! Go out and advertise: we have this organ, come and play it! Better, this would actually encourage more organists to get more beginners interested in playing the instrument. Who knows, some could even increase their income still further by teaching. Of course it's not ideal to be taught by a piano-convertee, but as the number of available players increases, so does the chance of finding a genuine organist rather than a willing pianist.

Just an outsider's view...

That's it.

This particular form of organ-playing low-life isnow definitely out of here.

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[Vox Humana]

Churches do seem to cause a lot of unnecessary grief to people. In the process organists, loyal servants of the church, get hurt and wounded and then prefer not to play. It is so sad but so common.

Oh dear, Barry, you've pressed my rant button again.

I'm with Samuel Wesley, who regarded music as a degrading occupation, only fit for those incapable of earning their living in a more respectable way. This certainly remains true for organists.

Here and there you can still find the odd church that values musicians and is prepared to allow them the scope to function decently and meaningfully. If you can find one of these, great, but for the most part I can't fathom why any trained organist would want to subject themselves to working for the church.

In my experience most ordinary churches these days have no understanding or empathy whatsoever with music, organs, or organists. I do know four or five musical priests for whom I have the greatest respect, but they are very much in a minority - and two of them are retired anyway. More common is the priest who thinks he knows about music, but actually doesn't. As far as I can see, your average parish priest today wants good, hearty, congregational singing, a large choir (mainly for witness value, though some do encourage anthems) and that is about it, apart from bits of background music before, during and after the services.

I know of one church today which is the opposite of what limh describes. Everything revolves around the priest. I assume he is sincere, devout and well-meaning, but he consults no one and takes no one's views into consideration - and that goes for the PCC too. He does whatever enables him to feel comfortable and if people don't like it they have to lump it. Services here are a bit like a TV entertainment with the priest as the star compere. This may be an extreme case, but I have come across a few not dissimilar ones.

They say that organists are difficult people and sometimes they are, but, looking around me and at some high profile cases that have come to national notice, I'm convinced that the biggest egos in the Church of England are not the ones sitting on the organ benches.

[Pianotimes]

Thanks for keeping this thread going. I'm enjoying reading the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm still trying to work out exactly whats going on and negotiating... so I will keep you posted and updated when I know. I'm also trying to persuade them to purchase a digital piano so that we don't have to have songs of fellowship songs on the organ if they're not suited. I am so pushing my luck at the mo and wouldn't surprise me if they say no... The minister was supportive though and he pointed out it was only two weeks worth of offertory money so should be affordable. One member pointed out it was the QUALITY of our worship and music and fellowship that mattered and not the money or the concerts or the christmas fairs. Another offered to donate half of the money to buy it as someone was kicking up a fuss about the money... (full of great characters our congregation and never a dull moment!) Thanks for your thoughts.
We will see. I'm treading very carefully. And pushing my luck in a big way!
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