Music Scholarships for Independent Schools, Do they encourage child abuse? Options

[tonedeafmum]

Your daughters very lucky to have such a wonderful school that encourages music. You shouldn't presume that those who send their children to fee paying schools don't make huge sacrifices. I haven't had a holiday for 4 or 5 years. We have a banger for a car, our house is run down. I buy the economy range from the supermarket and my kids shop at primark. We have chosen this in hope our children have opportunity's that we never had.

No - I don't "presume" but please don't you presume either.
I don't own a house or a car and we have never had a family holiday. I have nothing left to "sacrifice" to pay for what I cannot, under any circumstances, afford. We don't even have a Primark! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And I don't think there is anything I have said about my daughter's school which makes it sound so very "wonderful." It doesn't have an orchestra or a choir. It has a band (one keyboard, 2 singers and 3 violinists) and a few ad hoc groups that are set up now and again to provide fodder for the Music Btec. I just wanted to redress the balance a little since so much mud seemed to be being thrown at hard working teachers who are doing their best.

[Chris H]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Hear hear - let's hear it for the teachers. It can be a very hard job at times, and most of them are very dedicated and work extremely hard - at our school there are some fantastic teachers.

[sadrap]

"I think a decent education is sadly a privilege not a right. Not because of bad teaching but simply because of large class sizes and the stress secondary teachers are under"

This is what I said earlier, teachers are under way to much pressure and bureaucracy. I have great admiration for anyone that can teach and inspire the younger generation.
I'm sorry your daughter is not receiving the music education at school she obviously deserves, but that is exactly why my child became a Chorister. My child was fortunate, but I am fully aware a lot of very talented children who aren't so lucky. Sorry to have misunderstood you earlier.

[all ears]

why these state schools look at it negatively

I think that is true that the fact that music is not a "core" academic subject like English or Maths might be one reason. In Japan, music is not an academic subject at all, and is dropped completely for the final 2 years of high school. However, students who achieve in sports don't seem to get the same cold-shoulder treatment... just snobbery ("sports stars come from "ordinary" backgrounds, classical music stars come from "privileged" backgrounds").

If state schools really think so, why do they offer instruments that they themselves seem to think belong only to a certain sector of society? Why don't they either offer dressage and fencing in PE, or limit their music to karaoke? Problem solved!

Son Viohazard's music teachers at state elementary school, and the music teacher at the state junior high (at the point where Viohazard was expected to enter that school) were quite frosty at the time, yet when encountered years later, they have all been 1) enthusiastic about his chosen direction, and 2) full of wry collegial winks and nods.

Viohazard hasn't changed, so it must be their problem...BUT where do they think that future musicians (teachers and performers alike) are going to come from, if not from among their own students?

P.S. I don't think that music scholarships are child abuse, I can only wish that there was any such thing here. I think it is an EXCELLENT alternative to a specialist music high school (with limited choice of academic subjects and low academic standards) for the child who wants more than "just" music.

[FullofWind]

Music at my comp was dropped after the second year of high school. I applied to study GCSE Music but as I was the only one who applied it got dropped. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[notmusimum]

Your daughters very lucky to have such a wonderful school that encourages music. You shouldn't presume that those who send their children to fee paying schools don't make huge sacrifices. I haven't had a holiday for 4 or 5 years. We have a banger for a car, our house is run down. I buy the economy range from the supermarket and my kids shop at primark. We have chosen this in hope our children have opportunity's that we never had.

No - I don't "presume" but please don't you presume either.
I don't own a house or a car and we have never had a family holiday. I have nothing left to "sacrifice" to pay for what I cannot, under any circumstances, afford. We don't even have a Primark! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And I don't think there is anything I have said about my daughter's school which makes it sound so very "wonderful." It doesn't have an orchestra or a choir. It has a band (one keyboard, 2 singers and 3 violinists) and a few ad hoc groups that are set up now and again to provide fodder for the Music Btec. I just wanted to redress the balance a little since so much mud seemed to be being thrown at hard working teachers who are doing their best.

I have been and will continue to be vocal about the terrible music education my daughter received in high school. Nothing can change the fact the music teacher was lazy, jealous and coasted. There were lots of hard working members of staff in the school who did respect their pupils. This is a music forum and discussion about that aspect of my childs education is important. I too went to the Governors to meet with utter frustration.

The head of the school regularly walked out on peoples performances (not just my daughters) and had no regard for the effort pupils made to play in school events, often with little notice.

I know from other local schools that this is not the norm and the quality of provision was better in both neighbouring schools. It made the situation more infuriating.

My daughter is at a bog standard state 6th form college where the music teaching and support is fantastic. The teacher works hard makes sure the pupils have appropriate access for their needs and is well liked and respected. We have two very different musical experiences.

Our general experience of the college is very positive, there is plenty of support for those who want or need it in lots of areas. the Head of the college attends every concert, as do the governors, and at the end she makes a humerous speech in praise of the performers, staff and parents.

[sbhoa]

Music at my comp was dropped after the second year of high school. I applied to study GCSE Music but as I was the only one who applied it got dropped. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

For about half the time I was in secondary school we didn't have a music teacher.
The odd years when we did the few interested ones had some good lunchtime sessions covering theory/harmony basics and doing some fun playing. As a brass band school 3 of us and the music teacher (the year we had one) used to play quartets on 3 tenor horns and an Eb bass. Nobody needed to transpose that way and we could use anything written in 4 parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We didn't even know about music grade exams. We just played.

[Yoshifumu]

For about half the time I was in secondary school we didn't have a music teacher.
The odd years when we did the few interested ones had some good lunchtime sessions covering theory/harmony basics and doing some fun playing. As a brass band school 3 of us and the music teacher (the year we had one) used to play quartets on 3 tenor horns and an Eb bass. Nobody needed to transpose that way and we could use anything written in 4 parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We didn't even know about music grade exams. We just played.

That said I've known people in state schools and private schools who had missing teachers for A level and GCSE in subjects like Chemistry and English.

Missing a teacher in Music is bad. But in subjects that are compulsory for entry into university and college...

Overall I'm not sure how specific this problem is to Music. Although I would guess that it might be worse than some other subjects.

[Roseau]

That said I've known people in state schools and private schools who had missing teachers for A level and GCSE in subjects like Chemistry and English.

Missing a teacher in Music is bad. But in subjects that are compulsory for entry into university and college...

Overall I'm not sure how specific this problem is to Music. Although I would guess that it might be worse than some other subjects.

The Head of French when I was at secondary school didn't have a French degree. I had her for the first couple of years of secondary school and, despite being in the top set and always coming first in the exams, when groups were made for the 4th and 5th year she put me not in the top O level only group but the mxied CES/O level group. My mother wanted to complain but I persuaded her not to because it meant I got a different teacher.

When I went on to do A level French (and had her for 3 out of our 4 weekly lessons) she did everything she could to try and stop me applying to do a French degree. This included continously telling me that because I was shy I would never be able to speak French and was wasting my time (and hers!) and then refusing to write me a reference (fortunately one of the other French teachers did it for me). Lessons with her were a nightmare. There were only three of us in the class (and the other two wanted to be secretaries and didn't want to go to university), they used to sit at the front and, on the pretext of helping me learn to project my voice, she used to make me sit right at the back as far away as possible from everyone else, and then complain that I didn't join in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

In one mock exam the text we had to translate had the word "orchard" in it which none of us knew. The other two left a blank and I put "fruit trees". When she gave it back she had written on my paper (but no one else's) "Don't be lazy! Look up words you don't know in the dictionary." I objected that we weren't allowed dictionaries in the exam to which she replied: "What stopped you looking it up before?" When I protested that we didn't know that that particular word was going to be in the text she just said that I was making silly excuses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

On the other hand, we had two very nice and active music teachers...

[Tixylix]

It seems like so much is down to luck. Being in a promising catchment area in the first place, managing to get into an oversubscribed school, the dedication of the teachers in general and the teachers in your preferred subject. You may be unfortunate enough to get the bad apple for your subject out of a staff full of generally dedicated and skilled teachers - or you may be lucky and get the one teacher in a school who actually cares.

In Katharine Birbasingh's book To Miss with Love she mentions a kid who was unlucky enough to be in an English class for 5 years where the teacher simply couldn't control the class, and as a result his chances of a successful Oxbridge application in that subject were scuppered. Had he been in another class - not even another school, just a different class - "he could have been a contender". Right now my mum and I are both really worried for my sister because she has her A2 English exam in a few weeks and she missed a month of English lessons at the end of last year because the teacher forgot to tell them they were supposed to be going to classes at the other site where the classes were held and hadn't sorted out the transport they were supposed to have. If her chances of getting into Oxford or Bristol are scuppered because of their incompetence then I would hate to be my sister's English teacher in August because this is just the latest in a string of incompetencies over the last 6 years and my mum is ready to explode (fortunately for them I am 120 miles away!). She's doing English a year early so she could resit but because they've now stopped the inter-site arrangement we're not sure how or even if retake classes would be organised, and obviously her application will have to be in before resits are done.

Sometimes I feel like I'm being driven mad with guilt that I got to go to a decent school and she didn't. I know I'm not personally responsible in any way but it's breaking my heart every time I hear about the latest mess-up, which is at least once a month. Now she's saying she wants to give up her singing, which she loves almost as much as English, for her last year in high school so she can focus on her studies. I don't know if that's a good idea because I'm sure active extra-curriculars will help on her UCAS form but I can't force her.

[Misti]

Extra-curriculars aren't going to help that much if you don't manage to get the grades you need, at the end. I'm cynical, but watching the distress of friend with Oxbridge offers, who didn't get the grades required to actually get in (10% of my classmates had offers) has made me so. You sister could have a point.

If there is a chance though, could your family request that the school mentions in their reference the issues with administration that she has had to put up with? The idea of the reference is that matters like this can be flagged, and the admissions tutor can take them into account. I also seem to recall (its many years since I applied now) that the Cambridge application form had a box where you could write about any reasons that you might not have achieved as well as hoped - so something like this could also help.

And lastly, you can't live your sister's life for her. Don't allow yourself to be made to feel guilty, and let go of any you're creating for yourself. All you can do is be as supportive as possible, and feeling rotten helps niether you or her!

[Tixylix]

If there is a chance though, could your family request that the school mentions in their reference the issues with administration that she has had to put up with? The idea of the reference is that matters like this can be flagged, and the admissions tutor can take them into account. I also seem to recall (its many years since I applied now) that the Cambridge application form had a box where you could write about any reasons that you might not have achieved as well as hoped - so something like this could also help.

Good plan, I'll definitely suggest it. She hasn't got as far as filling in the application form at this point and I know it's changed since I did it, for a start you now get 5 choices instead of the 6 I had in 2006. The UCAS reference is something I'm honestly trying not to think about - at the end of year 11 each pupil's form tutor had to write a sort of reference for them, talking about their achievements and such over the past 5 years and her form tutor told the class to write them all themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) The tutor did eventually agree to do it after they all refused, though they did some amusing joke ones. I think she has a different 6th form tutor, hopefully she won't be made to write her own UCAS reference, though I suppose that might help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Scooby Doo]

Yes, Cambridge certainly has quite a lengthy additional form to complete which explores exactly these sorts of issues - you are asked whether you were able to take the A level subjects that you wanted, and lots of questions about the demographics of your school, class sizes and so on, and how much, if any specific help was available to you for entrance exam preparations - so I think they do try pretty hard to take into account the different levels of support that people have had. Arguably those from independent schools with a lot of opportunities mat be expected to have achieved more given their advantages. It is never going to be a completely level playing field, but my impression of having attended a few recent open days was that "the powers that be" are fairly clued up, so don't despair if you haven't accesss to all the facilities you would like!

[Swell Box]

I read a report this morning about a Yacht Broker who had fiddled HMRC out of 210,000 GBP in VAT to pay for school fees.

He is currently serving three years!

The lengths some people will go to to avoid the state education system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SB

[Chris H]

I read a report this morning about a Yacht Broker who had fiddled HMRC out of 210,000 GBP in VAT to pay for school fees.

He is currently serving three years!

The lengths some people will go to to avoid the state education system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SB

It makes you wonder what they are so scared of. What an example for his children.