Telling students they are good, How do you do this? Options

[FullofWind]

I think it is important to praise at the appropriate times. Unfortunately none of my children's teachers praise them and tend to only criticse, even if done in a pleasant and constructive way. Because of this my children do not have as much confidence in their abilities eventhough they are good. When they achieve a high exam mark or pass an audition they still assume they are not that good as they never hear praise. A less talented child is no more deserving of praise than a talented child. In fact if a less talented child is praised more then a love of music is inculcated. It is terrible to think that we don't do this to our most talented musicians and often the reverse is true.

[sbhoa]

I think it is important to praise at the appropriate times. Unfortunately none of my children's teachers praise them and tend to only criticse, even if done in a pleasant and constructive way. Because of this my children do not have as much confidence in their abilities eventhough they are good. When they achieve a high exam mark or pass an audition they still assume they are not that good as they never hear praise. A less talented child is no more deserving of praise than a talented child. In fact if a less talented child is praised more then a love of music is inculcated. It is terrible to think that we don't do this to our most talented musicians and often the reverse is true.

That sounds rather like teachers who don't like teaching or just don't get it.....

[Misterioso]

And I've realised I always say Well Done! at the end of a lesson, as well as often saying thanks for coming - which sounded really affected when I began doing it but one of my son's teachers says it and I liked it!

I often say "well done!" too at the end, because I want them to leave feeling that they have achieved something (and usually they have, even if at times it's not very much). But I don't say it if it really isn't deserved. I wouldn't say "thanks for coming" though, because it sounds as though they have done you a favour, when if fact you are charging them for it!

I give praise when praise is due. Having said that, a child who is very timid or needs more encouragement is likely to get a little more praise. Usually it is very specific, but occasionally it is a "general chat" kind of praise, as one wee girl in particular needs to keep being reassured that she is doing alright.

Even as an adult, I appreciate praise in my flute lesson - although if I get it, I know I have done something really well.

[anacrusis]

does anyone really deserve no praise, ever?

No, I don't think so. Although I don't go OTT in praise I do make a point of saying 'Hurray! You're here with your violin AND your music AND your fingers and you are ON TIME!' to some of my most chaotic students on the occasions when it is deserved. And often they are the least accomplished because they don't get organised at home by themselves or their parents to practise so progress is limited.

Ouch. I'm afraid, if I were said chaotic individual, and that's entirely feasible, I'd simply take that for the veiled reprimand it actually is. Now I can see that less sensitive snowflakes than I clearly am would be saying fft and tsk and oh goodness me stop being so precious - but the point is, we rarely make original comments: the personality hearing that will almost certainly be hearing that sort of thing over and over from others too, and with time, that sets and makes us think of ourselves in a certain way. True, meaningful praise, is the bit which acknowledges valuable achievement properly. I'm not saying, don't mention it at all, but it's worth considering saying ooh, I'm pleased you're organised today, we can make more of the lesson that way...and then moving on. We tend to value organisational ability but it doesn't come naturally to everyone, and those to whom it does see it as a virtue, which leaves the rest of us feeling a bit undervalued.....

[JudithJ]

My current piano teacher gives effusive praise, in (almost) every lesson. She is quite specific in her praise, and only gives it when deserved. She then moves on to help me in the areas which require work. It makes me want to be magnificent for her.

It is a very different relationship to that with another teacher who this week told me "Very Good" after playing a piece. I had worked very hard, it was my first two part composition. I knew that it was good, I also knew that her praise was not heartfelt, so it felt more like condemnation than praise.

I think that even some young students can tell the different between various types of praise.


Edit: I've just looked up effusive in the dictionary. I meant the "overflowing" definition, not "unduly demonstrative".

[Cyrilla]

My current piano teacher gives effusive praise, in (almost) every lesson. She is quite specific in her praise, and only gives it when deserved. She then moves on to help me in the areas which require work. It makes me want to be magnificent for her.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a very different relationship to that with another teacher who this week told me "Very Good" after playing a piece. I had worked very hard, it was my first two part composition. I knew that it was good, I also knew that her praise was not heartfelt, so it felt more like condemnation than praise.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

I think that even some young students can tell the different between various types of praise.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[pitcher54]

Being one of those terribly British types who find gushing praise deeply embarrassing, I have read this topic with interest.

Praising specific achievements is relatively straightforward, but gauging the level of praise to bestow on some children is really difficult.

I teach one little girl who shuts up like a clam if I offer her praise for her playing, but then she is a unique individual.

I have found that boys often respond well to marks out of ten, and are quite keen to improve their result.

However, if you ask them to score themselves, they will often score low in an attempt to elicit a higher score from me.

Does anyone still use the silver and gold stars that I remember being so keen on when I was a child?

[sbhoa]

does anyone really deserve no praise, ever?

No, I don't think so. Although I don't go OTT in praise I do make a point of saying 'Hurray! You're here with your violin AND your music AND your fingers and you are ON TIME!' to some of my most chaotic students on the occasions when it is deserved. And often they are the least accomplished because they don't get organised at home by themselves or their parents to practise so progress is limited.

Ouch. I'm afraid, if I were said chaotic individual, and that's entirely feasible, I'd simply take that for the veiled reprimand it actually is. Now I can see that less sensitive snowflakes than I clearly am would be saying fft and tsk and oh goodness me stop being so precious - but the point is, we rarely make original comments: the personality hearing that will almost certainly be hearing that sort of thing over and over from others too, and with time, that sets and makes us think of ourselves in a certain way. True, meaningful praise, is the bit which acknowledges valuable achievement properly. I'm not saying, don't mention it at all, but it's worth considering saying ooh, I'm pleased you're organised today, we can make more of the lesson that way...and then moving on. We tend to value organisational ability but it doesn't come naturally to everyone, and those to whom it does see it as a virtue, which leaves the rest of us feeling a bit undervalued.....

I usually see those 'ouch!' comments a thoroughly deserved though they are always about my playing.
They don't cone often and I'm pretty sure that mostly that was not the intended effect.
I sometimes frustrate my teacher as she says I'm much better at accepting instruction about what I need to improve than I am at accepting praise.

[Cyrilla]

Does anyone still use the silver and gold stars that I remember being so keen on when I was a child?

Guilty as charged (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) .

Sticker-Queen

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yoshifumu]

I remember reading a study a while ago, with pre-school children, which showed how problematic this is. I can't remember the details, but it was to do with spontaneous drawing for pleasure, as opposed to requested drawing with or without the promise of a reward. Those who were routinely told they would be rewarded at the end of the task were found, later on, to be less inclined to draw for pleasure.

Quite separately, I have once singled out a pupil for a shower of superlative-laden general praise, but this was when saying goodbye due to me moving away, and she did (and still does) stand out as an exceptionally promising young musician (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I hope this isn't too long

In response to the quote

There was a study on the subject not too long ago, and as you said they showed there were better results when children were given praise, and not material rewards.

It's akin to a story about a jewish man who owned a shop in Germany in the late 1930's. The SS praised young boys to go round stoning jewish shop windows. So one day one of the shop owners went out and gave each of the boys some money (say a pound). They were all shocked and ran off. The next week when they did the same, he paid them a bit less (say 80p), with them running off again but a bit dissapointed. He gradually decreased the amount he was paying them until it was only penny's worth. At which point the leading boy said: "we're not going to come round and smash your windows any more because you don't pay us enough!"

The morale being: if you give someone verbal praise, they will do it for free and the joy of it. If you give them a gold star, they will do it for a reward. And once that stops coming, they won't want to do it again.



In response to the thread

Anyway I have a bit more to add as I feel strongly on this subject. I'm not a teacher though so take what I say with a pinch of salt. I just enjoy psychology.

Skinner showed when he was doing experiments on behaviour that animals respond dramatically better to positive reinforcement (praise and material reward) than to negative reinforcement (punishment). This is largely reinforced throughout behavioural psychology and is also seen in a lot of parenting books around. The point is essentially: encouragement and praise gives a person a positive experience. This makes them want to replicate and continue it. Whereas negativity will make them do it to avoid punishment, not for the enjoyment of it.

I know a lot of you talk about making sure young children enjoy instruments by not forcing it and encouraging them. But that is exactly what praise is for, whilst negative comments, especially at a young/tender age, might make a younger child feel like they can't do it and not want to try again. (Ideally comments like: that was really nice, but could you practice this more at home because I want you to be even better. or something along those lines).


That's the basics, but as with everything it is a ###### of a lot more complicated.


Different children will always react differently to certain situations. Some may prefer constructive criticism so as to know how to improve, some will like praise so that they will want to improve. Ideally they would get both. You can imagine though, if a pupil had just learnt a piece, whether difficult or easy, and had played relatively competently, then being berated with ways on how they can improve slightly, without any praise about how well they had done, might be a bit put off.

The effect is much stronger if they are new to music though. You'll find anyone who has been doing anything for a long period of time (sport, music, artistry) will be much more able to deal with negative comments and move on without minding, than someone new to the subject. I don't think I knew anyone who enjoyed taking their report card from school home, so that their parents could get at them for all the 'could do better' comments but ignore the A+ grades they had got. But they probably wouldn't mind if the comments were balanced. (you did this really well, but you need to improve on this).


From what I'm hearing from most people is that people need to give a spectacular performance to get some praise, but only give a mildly poor performance for negative comments. I mean, do you think that when you give positive praise you will always balance it with some ways to improve. But when you talk more negatively about a performance you will always praise parts of it as well?


I haven't been taught for a while so I'm taking this from what I've read and friends experiences (as well as some older memories) so please feel free to completely disagree with me.

All I'm trying to say is that:

Constructive criticism is great for telling someone how to improve.

But praise is a great way to make someone want to improve.


You probably need both to get the best out of the student right?


That's my two cents anyway.


Edit:
Forgot to add:

Adults should probably be able to take a lot more criticism than a child, although they often are much more self-critical so they probably need to be encouraged as much as a young child anyway!!!

Also:

a lot of people have mentioned getting pupils to criticise each other. Has anyone tried getting pupils to criticise themselves? I would be interested to know how it went! (If children then learnt how to know intuitively what to improve by reflecting on their own pieces).



And lastly (I need to stop editing this post) going back on what I said at the top. A more recent study showed that it is a much better idea not to tell kids: 'Oh you are very good at that'. But instead say: 'Wow, you must have worked really hard on that because it looks/sounds/is really good!'

When tested in a classroom with abstract puzzles, the former helped the children a bit, and made them feel good. But for fear of losing the reputation of being 'good' didn't want to risk doing anything too hard.

The children who had a reputation of 'hard worker = good' persevered with harder tasks until they were completed, even if it took ages.

[soccermom]

a lot of people have mentioned getting pupils to criticise each other. Has anyone tried getting pupils to criticise themselves? I would be interested to know how it went! (If children then learnt how to know intuitively what to improve by reflecting on their own pieces).

My daughters' piano teacher and the younger one's cello teacher both do this (not so much when they're first learning a piece, but when they're trying to polish it). When asked "how did you think that went?" They usually know pretty well how well they played it, and might mention a particular section of the piece that wasn't so secure, or a lack of dynamics or trouble with a tricky shift or whatever. I like the girls thinking for themselves what went well and what less well. The teacher usually agrees, adds something (good or bad) that wasn't mentioned, and then goes on to work with them over the bits that weren't so good.

[owainsutton]

My daughters' piano teacher and the younger one's cello teacher both do this (not so much when they're first learning a piece, but when they're trying to polish it). When asked "how did you think that went?" They usually know pretty well how well they played it, and might mention a particular section of the piece that wasn't so secure, or a lack of dynamics or trouble with a tricky shift or whatever. I like the girls thinking for themselves what went well and what less well. The teacher usually agrees, adds something (good or bad) that wasn't mentioned, and then goes on to work with them over the bits that weren't so good.

I try to do it in a similar way, but also trying to get them to identify things that did go well, or which have improved. With the more self-critical characters, reinforcing how a tricky passage is now flowing really well, for instance, can emphasise the medium-term progress they've made over a couple of months rather than simply what has improved from seven days ago.

[jenny]

Does anyone still use the silver and gold stars that I remember being so keen on when I was a child?

I used to use them until I heard about The Sticker Factory - thanks, Cyrilla! - and now I use custom made stickers. My pupils love them!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[louloubelle]

Quote from Yoshifuma:-

Adults should probably be able to take a lot more criticism than a child, although they often are much more self-critical so they probably need to be encouraged as much as a young child anyway!!!

Also:

a lot of people have mentioned getting pupils to criticise each other. Has anyone tried getting pupils to criticise themselves? I would be interested to know how it went! (If children then learnt how to know intuitively what to improve by reflecting on their own pieces).

----------------------

I am an adult returner (violin)(of mature years even if not mature temperament) and find this thread very interesting.

My teacher is very ready with praise ("well done",) whether in a group class or my individual class. I don't always agree with her, but I feel she says it more as encouragement than actual praise.

With regard to asking pupils to critique themselves---I must be a nightmare to teach, because as soon as a piece is finished I leap in with my take on how it went---which bars / phases worked, or which were raggy, etc. My teacher usually plays along with me (my preference from the beginning) and that tells me as we go along about the accuracy (or often otherwise) of my rhythm and intonation.
I am sure for adult learners self-analysis must the be norm---then the teacher can advise on how we can work towards the result we expect from ourselves !

Over the whole of my learning life I have been one of the ones who "needs" positive reinforcement, but it is difficult when praise seems too forthcoming. Having said that, I --like all adults ---know perfectly well if I am making progress or not---just going back to play the pieces I "finished" a couple of months ago tells me that.

[barbara]

Following another thread...

I hardly ever tell kids they are good. I praise them for specific things, particularly when they work things out themselves or apply something they already learned in a new, appropriate situation. But I don't gush about the fact that they play the violin or that they sing or that they just got 139 for Grade X.

(I thought about this recently because I <did> gush to a Gd 2 violinist who got a Pass of 102. I told him that he could do something that 99.9% of people could not do and that he should feel enormously proud of his certificate because he worked so hard for it.)

But I have to admit I cringe if I hear kids telling others that they are 'On Grade X' (especially if they did Grade X-1 last month) and have been know to say 'Yes, but are you making a Grade X sound? With a Grade X bowhold?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Maybe I am just Mean.

This reminds me of when I was a teenager and used to attend a group singing class.
When we had each finished our piece, the teacher always said something like "there was a great deal of good in that performance. Perhaps you might like to improve upon the following ..........."
It did wonders for the students' morale and I never forgotten this when I am teaching . Everyone wants to be praised and in my experience it has always spurred my students on to do even better, no matter what standard they are.