Telling students they are good, How do you do this? Options

[ansatz496]

This reminds me of when I was a teenager and used to attend a group singing class.
When we had each finished our piece, the teacher always said something like "there was a great deal of good in that performance. Perhaps you might like to improve upon the following ..........."
It did wonders for the students' morale and I never forgotten this when I am teaching . Everyone wants to be praised and in my experience it has always spurred my students on to do even better, no matter what standard they are.

When I played poorly, my viola teacher for many years would always start his comments with "There's a lot of good things to it, but..." even there wasn't much good at all. I appreciated that he was trying to be positive, but I'm afraid that it didn't make much of a difference, because I knew he would say it regardless of how I played and it became synonymous with "that was terrible" for me.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) I realize it was more my problem than his though.

[Rosie91]

This reminds me of when I was a teenager and used to attend a group singing class.
When we had each finished our piece, the teacher always said something like "there was a great deal of good in that performance. Perhaps you might like to improve upon the following ..........."
It did wonders for the students' morale and I never forgotten this when I am teaching . Everyone wants to be praised and in my experience it has always spurred my students on to do even better, no matter what standard they are.

When I played poorly, my viola teacher for many years would always start his comments with "There's a lot of good things to it, but..." even there wasn't much good at all. I appreciated that he was trying to be positive, but I'm afraid that it didn't make much of a difference, because I knew he would say it regardless of how I played and it became synonymous with "that was terrible" for me.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) I realize it was more my problem than his though.

Similarly, if you ask "What did you think?" after a pupil has played, ask it after good performances as well as dodgy ones! Otherwise it becomes synonymous in the pupil's head (or at least in my head!) with "I can't think of anything good to say."

[owainsutton]

When I played poorly, my viola teacher for many years would always start his comments with "There's a lot of good things to it, but..." even there wasn't much good at all. I appreciated that he was trying to be positive, but I'm afraid that it didn't make much of a difference, because I knew he would say it regardless of how I played and it became synonymous with "that was terrible" for me.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

This is why it's important to be specific about what the good things are - even if you have to think hard to find one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[StuMac]

I once played at a festival and the adjudicator said that I had "....good melodic projection and had really captured the perfumed orientalism" of Satie's music.

I honestly think these are some of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me!

..."good melodic projection and had really captured the orientalism" would have been nice, but would have sounded a bit like a stock phrase.

I was, however, overjoyed to be told that I had captured the "perfumed orientalism" - a lesson there somewhere!

[Blackbow]

(I thought about this recently because I <did> gush to a Gd 2 violinist who got a Pass of 102. I told him that he could do something that 99.9% of people could not do and that he should feel enormously proud of his certificate because he worked so hard for it.)

I got 102 for my Gd 2 violin. Then I got a barage of criticism and didn't play again for 45 years. If my teacher had said what you did just maybe I would have stuck with it.

[Yoshifumu]

Can we poll this?

I'm not sure if there's more support for positive vs. negative vs. gushing either way.

I'll set one up if needs be.

[notmusimum]

Can we poll this?

I'm not sure if there's more support for positive vs. negative vs. gushing either way.

I'll set one up if needs be.

Gushing praise is pointless as is deliberate negativity. Teachers can give pointers to improve without being negative. I suppose sometimes it depends on the mindset of the student and the family as to how they take constructive criticism.

I think a lot of people have explained very well how they point out weaknesses in a positive way. Not giving pupils things to improve or explaining to them how to get better, can be negative and equally lead to frustration.

[GMc]

Did the poster mean telling people they have done well at something in particular or are more generally "good" as in talented, hard working, able to do this professionally etc?

I know that DD gets praise at almost all her lessons. She always practices and makes progress though and prefers to get advice on difficult areas than hear praise at regular lessons. Suggestions for improvements take up much more of the lessons of course. The more demanding teacher gets better results.

I asked her what the best piece of praise she had ever had was and she recalled 2. Both from highly accomplished professionals at masterclasses. One was that she had transported all the audience to another world and the other that she had had a rare gift of being able to listen intensely to herself as she played. I remember other very nice more mundane comments at this sort of class which she did not - like you have excellent internal rhythm, beautiful even technique and tone etc. I think for her the more unusual the praise the more it memorable and inspirational it is. And it depends who it came from as well as to the impact.

I once saw a masterclass from a world famous player who absolutely annihilated a teen. I really blame the teacher as this child should never have been put up there. Didnt know the notes or the meaning of any terms in the music even. Really badly prepared. But the teacher was ungracious and bad tempered and although I had sympathy that her time was being wasted there were ways of dealing with this better. She could have played it herself and commented, she could have moved to the next pupil immediately..... I doubt that child will play again in public. The kid that followed looked pretty concerned at first but they had a good lesson.

For beginners with a less well developed internal appreciation of how good something really is - praise is absolutely vital and the difference between continuing and not. And limiting the areas of criticism to something achievable in near future helps too in these situations.

[sbhoa]

One of my most memorable moments of praise in a lesson was when my teacher forgot to turn the page for me because he was 'Too busy listening to the music'.

[Invidia]

I remember my first flute teacher once turning around to me and saying "you haven't been practising so you're wasting my time and your parents' money. I can ignore this fact and tell you that you're playing well and spend lessons doing what you should be doing in practise if you want, but this lesson your playing was abysmal and I'm telling you this because I know you're a better player than this."

I was about 12 at the time, and to be honest it gave me a huge kick and the fact she said "I know you're better than this" prevented any sort of "I should just give up then" reaction.

Personally if I feel the need to be that ^ harsh, I will do it. I don't make a living out of teaching, I do it because I enjoy it and the point of a teacher is to help the student. Particularly when exams are concerned there's no point in being delicate because let's be honest there's nothing delicate about the word "fail". There are plenty of other listeners, even in a concert setting, who are there to hear the lovely music and be forgiving of shabby work, but that's really not a teacher's job and even the day before the exam of a distinction level candidate, a teacher who gets swept up in the lovely performance is a bit rubbish because there's always room for improvement, even if we're only talking holding the last note a little longer. In my view anyway.

That being said, they need to know what they're doing right! So you can't do nothing but criticise. Equally if they reallly are doing nothing more than getting the majority of the notes in some sort of order so you can vaguely tell what they're meant to be playing, then any form of praise is totally empty and genuine praise will come to mean less to them.

[ansatz496]

One of my most memorable moments of praise in a lesson was when my teacher forgot to turn the page for me because he was 'Too busy listening to the music'.

I just have to say that's lovely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think that will be my goal for my next lesson!

[Yoshifumu]

I remember my first flute teacher once turning around to me and saying "you haven't been practising so you're wasting my time and your parents' money. I can ignore this fact and tell you that you're playing well and spend lessons doing what you should be doing in practise if you want, but this lesson your playing was abysmal and I'm telling you this because I know you're a better player than this."

I was about 12 at the time, and to be honest it gave me a huge kick and the fact she said "I know you're better than this" prevented any sort of "I should just give up then" reaction.

Personally if I feel the need to be that ^ harsh, I will do it. I don't make a living out of teaching, I do it because I enjoy it and the point of a teacher is to help the student. Particularly when exams are concerned there's no point in being delicate because let's be honest there's nothing delicate about the word "fail". There are plenty of other listeners, even in a concert setting, who are there to hear the lovely music and be forgiving of shabby work, but that's really not a teacher's job and even the day before the exam of a distinction level candidate, a teacher who gets swept up in the lovely performance is a bit rubbish because there's always room for improvement, even if we're only talking holding the last note a little longer. In my view anyway.

That being said, they need to know what they're doing right! So you can't do nothing but criticise. Equally if they reallly are doing nothing more than getting the majority of the notes in some sort of order so you can vaguely tell what they're meant to be playing, then any form of praise is totally empty and genuine praise will come to mean less to them.

But didn't you also just say that your teacher told you how abysmal your playing was one day, but still managed to put in that you could do better. And that it may have been that which stopped you from giving up then and there?

I think some form of praise, even if it is 'you have it in you' type praise, can always be worked in can't it? Even if it just to dampen the torrent of things they need to improve on.

[ansatz496]

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Personally if I feel the need to be that ^ harsh, I will do it. I don't make a living out of teaching, I do it because I enjoy it and the point of a teacher is to help the student. Particularly when exams are concerned there's no point in being delicate because let's be honest there's nothing delicate about the word "fail". There are plenty of other listeners, even in a concert setting, who are there to hear the lovely music and be forgiving of shabby work, but that's really not a teacher's job and even the day before the exam of a distinction level candidate, a teacher who gets swept up in the lovely performance is a bit rubbish because there's always room for improvement, even if we're only talking holding the last note a little longer. In my view anyway.
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I agree with most of what you say, but I think the day (or even the last lesson) before the exam of a well-prepared candidate is different. For me at least, getting lots of minor criticisms rather than praise from my teacher on a basically good performance right before an exam would unnerve me rather than help me perform better, since at that point there's not much time to incorporate changes. That close to an exam I would mostly just want reassurance from my teacher - you could argue that in that case the teacher wouldn't be teaching much music and the lesson would be useless, but I think it's worth it, for my personality at least (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) One of my friends has a very strict (in the East European style) and renowned music teacher who never skimps on criticisms and is sparing in praise, but the day before a major competition or audition she always helps her students choose what they're going to wear rather than giving them a proper lesson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

...
But didn't you also just say that your teacher told you how abysmal your playing was one day, but still managed to put in that you could do better. And that it may have been that which stopped you from giving up then and there?

I think some form of praise, even if it is 'you have it in you' type praise, can always be worked in can't it? Even if it just to dampen the torrent of things they need to improve on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I would actually be flattered if my teachers told me I could do much better.