Authenticity; Baroque .v. Piano Options

[AntonPiano]

So I've chosen a Scarlatti piece for my grade 8 and I have an unsettling conflict; to pedal or not to pedal? I think it's an innate fear I have developed after studying under my secondary school music teacher at GCSE who was a baroque enthusiast. I'm not quite sure whether or not I'm clutching at straws, but the possibility of pedaling hadn't occurred to me until researching some recordings of the piece - all of which use pedals.

Do I pedal, or don't I? And will it hurt me in the exam room either way?

[anacrusis]

So I've chosen a Scarlatti piece for my grade 8 and I have an unsettling conflict; to pedal or not to pedal? I think it's an innate fear I have developed after studying under my secondary school music teacher at GCSE who was a baroque enthusiast. I'm not quite sure whether or not I'm clutching at straws, but the possibility of pedaling hadn't occurred to me until researching some recordings of the piece - all of which use pedals.

Do I pedal, or don't I? And will it hurt me in the exam room either way?

There were fortepianos around in Scarlatti's day, and in the court he worked in, so he might well have come across those - I think Scarlatti's music works as well on piano as it does on harpsichord, for what my opinion's worth. (Alfred Brendel disagreed with me on that one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)). - Early pianos clearly aren't the same as later ones, having had different actions and not all having been equipped with pedals, but from the point of view of piano e forte, the basics were there already. So...even in the event of getting a baroque enthusiast for an examiner (by no means certain), pedalling would be reasonable. I would watch that you don't overdo it, simply because the texture of earlier music is more readily heard without it, but if you do so in moderation, it can work very well indeed. Much of Scarlatti's music does benefit though from fairly crisp articulation for its effect.

Just to deflect for a moment: my kids' first piano teacher always said - it's worth being able to play all your pieces reasonably coherently without pedal at all, just in case the mechanism fouls up in performance: trying that out means you also focus quite hard on the articulation of what you play, and helps to avoid smudge once you do put the pedal there.

[pianoeater]

You're playing on a modern piano so use pedal. A 100% authentic performance is impossible to achieve anyway. You just need to pedal in a way that doesn't sound like you're pedalling and be smart about your pedal - only use it when you know it will produce a better musical effect. My Western Music History lecturer is an early music expert. She would say the same. You just want to recreate the Baroque sound world - not the exact Baroque timbre.

Good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[katica]

One of my great friends has become something of a Scarlatti specialist. He plays both harpsichord and piano and usually plays Scarlatti on the harpsichord. But at his last concert - with an explanation a bit similar to Anacrusis' - he also played a piece on the piano, so the audience could appreciate that Scarlatti, composing at the transition from harpsichord to fortepiano, sounds great on the piano too. Light pedalling - but there was some.

[kenm]

... Scarlatti, composing at the transition from harpsichord to fortepiano, sounds great on the piano too. ...

I agree that the works are suitable for a piano, but the more pedal you use the less they will sound like what Scarlatti would have done.

[Yoshifumu]

From what I've heard on the subject (I think a similar topic was started in the diploma forum?), you should always try to play the piece in the style/era it was written. So baroque normally = no pedal.

That said if Scarlatti composed when piano's were around it could probably work either way. I'd reckon it would be easy to over-pedal a piece from this time though. I would say its safer not to pedal.

[Invidia]

I would watch that you don't overdo it, simply because the texture of earlier music is more readily heard without it, but if you do so in moderation, it can work very well indeed. Much of Scarlatti's music does benefit though from fairly crisp articulation for its effect.

^this basically.

I don't know if I'm quoting another member here or someone on another forum, but they were saying that the concept of using no pedal because earlier instruments had none/ones that operated differently is ridiculous because, for example, a piano is a piano and a harpsichord is a harpsichord, and a piano without pedal does not sound like a harpsichord, it sounds like a piano without pedal. Whoever said it hit the nail on the head really.

[anacrusis]

A couple of other nuggets of info: first, that it was general practice in that era to pilfer the repertoire of other instruments than the one it was written for (thank goodness - it means that I can nick baroque strings, flute and oboe music, muahaha....always providing I can actually manage to play it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )...so again, another justification for using a piano, here...

- and secondly, there is considerable difference between the touch of a harpsichord and that of pianos, early or late. It means that although it's pretty well impossible to get piano e forte on harpsi by touch alone, you can get the illusion of that using appropriate articulation - lighter and more separated notes for echo effects for instance: the other factor though works in the harpsichord's favour - it's much easier to play quick trills and runs on it because the action is less stiff, at least if the instrument is well set up. The quick passages in particular need practice to get that effortless sound if baroque music is not to sound pedantic.

[ansatz496]

...
I don't know if I'm quoting another member here or someone on another forum, but they were saying that the concept of using no pedal because earlier instruments had none/ones that operated differently is ridiculous because, for example, a piano is a piano and a harpsichord is a harpsichord, and a piano without pedal does not sound like a harpsichord, it sounds like a piano without pedal. Whoever said it hit the nail on the head really.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) I don't think it could be said better! In my opinion, completely leaving out pedal sounds ridiculous and often leads to an unmusical, contrived sound. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) Harpsichords are much more resonant than pianos without pedal anyway, so even the argument of authenticity doesn't justify refusing to use pedal. Of course it isn't acceptable if pedal blurs polyphony, and it's true that pedal can be overdone - the key is to maintain a balance, as one needs to do for any piece from any time period (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kenm]

I don't know if I'm quoting another member here or someone on another forum, but they were saying that the concept of using no pedal because earlier instruments had none/ones that operated differently is ridiculous because, for example, a piano is a piano and a harpsichord is a harpsichord, and a piano without pedal does not sound like a harpsichord, it sounds like a piano without pedal. Whoever said it hit the nail on the head really.

Have you heard an 18th C fortepiano? To my ear, the sound is about half way between a harpsichord and a modern grand. This is because the hammers were harder* and not carefully placed to hit the string so as to discourage the third and fifth partials.

* they were also lighter.

[dorfmouse]

just listen to great players - Horowitz, Pletnev, Zimmerman, Babayan, the Naxos recordings ...... huge differences in interpretation of the same pieces. Plenty of subtle pedalling going on!
Beautiful, beautiful stuff!

Which piece are you playing?

[VH2]

You have to make up your own mind about these things, and live or die by your decision.

There are far too many people about who want to force their opinions about interpretation on everyone else. You can spot them because they use the word "should" a lot, without qualifying it with an "if <you want to achieve such-and-such> then" before going on to tell you how to achieve your ends.


There is no law against using pedal in Baroque pieces, so you will not be thrown into gaol if you do use it in the music of Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Scarlatti, Telemann, Handel and their contemporaries (much as the "authenticity" mafia would like to lock you up for such a crime, assuming they have not already locked you away for daring to use a modern piano).

[Yoshifumu]

You have to make up your own mind about these things, and live or die by your decision.

There are far too many people about who want to force their opinions about interpretation on everyone else. You can spot them because they use the word "should" a lot, without qualifying it with an "if <you want to achieve such-and-such> then" before going on to tell you how to achieve your ends.


There is no law against using pedal in Baroque pieces, so you will not be thrown into gaol if you do use it in the music of Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Scarlatti, Telemann, Handel and their contemporaries (much as the "authenticity" mafia would like to lock you up for such a crime, assuming they have not already locked you away for daring to use a modern piano).

It probably depends on the examiner anyway and how they feel about it. Especially if they belong to this mafia.

[vectistim]

I don't know about this for exam purposes, but when messing around at home I find the use of the piano pedal in this sort of situation makes it feel (at least to me) slightly more baroque.

[Robodoc]

Playing baroque on a piano is always a compromise because no-one born in 1685 (such as JS Bach, D Scarlatti or GF Handel) had a piano to write for. The instruments they did write for included keyboard instruments, where it was fairly common practice to write for "keyboard" rather than any specific instrument, expecting the performer to adapt the performance to the instrument being used. Alas, none of the keyboard instruments available had much in the way of fine dynamic control nor (with the exception of the organ) much in the way of sustain, as a piano does/ However, other instruments they wrote for do have fine dynamic control and sustain, such as an orchestra or a choir. This gives (at least) 4 ways of finding a pianistic solution to playing baroque keyboard music: Impersonate a harpsichord, impersonate Liszt, impersonate someone playing Liszt badly, or impersonate a baroque orchestra.

1) Impersonate a harpsichord. This seems to be strangely popular but doesn't really work for me - lit leads to a very "dry" perfomance.
2) Impersonate Liszt, using the full range of pianistic techniques, as perfected by late romantic composers, with widely ranging dynamics, huge variation in articulation, rubato extensive pedalling etc. This is generally frowned on, which probably means it's unfashionable rather than actually wrong (I believe it was very popular about the turn of the 19th/20th century i.e. the time the late romantic composers were the avant garde) but it doesn't really work and to me (and most other people) sounds just wrong.
3) Impersonate someone playing Liszt badly i.e. use some romantic techniques but watered down (or used sensitively, depending on your point of view). - This can be very effective, leads to use of some pedal but still leaves something out - it still has a romantic feel, which tends not to suit the music.
4) Impersonate a baroque orchestra: Try to hear what Bach (or Scarlatti, or Handel, or Vivaldi, or whichever composer you're working on) does when he is writing for an instrument or ensemble with dynamic range, sustain, variable articulation etc. and try to reproduce that sound on a piano. This sounds as though it might be similar to (3) but I feel that there is a difference between a romantic feel and a baroque feel, even with both styles making sensitive use of pianistic techniques.

Whatever you do with your interpretation you should be internally consistent: Know what you're trying to achieve and why and you are more likely to achieve it.

Personally I'm currently re-working a JSB sinfonia (which used to be called a 3 part Invention). I'm trying to sound like a string trio!