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Brass finals, What message does it send out.

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FullofWind	Apr 21 2012, 08:11 AM Post #1
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 262 Joined: 11-March 12 Member No.: 419209	I was struck by the damage on the lips of some of the brass players in the BBC YMOY competition. I feel very strongly that music should not cause physical injury. Yes there will always be repetitive strain injuries, and I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it seems contradictory that in order to entertain at the top levels, musicians face many physical discomforts. In order to produce something so beautiful they must endure much pain. Seems contradictory. The message that I got, loud and clear, was not to allow my children to play such an instrument other than French horn as it's mouth piece seemed much smaller.

Scooby Doo	Apr 21 2012, 02:03 PM Post #2
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 628 Joined: 7-June 11 Member No.: 267513	I think the red marks we saw are only temporary - they all look OK in their interviews, no? I've never heard of any permanent damage from playing a brass instrument. I'm just watching the final now - amazing tuba player, and some interesting effects from the horn player too.....

sbhoa	Apr 21 2012, 03:08 PM Post #3
Maestro Group: Members Posts: 19001 Joined: 31-October 03 From: Tameside Member No.: 24	And I currently have a small red mark just below my bottom lip as I've just spent a little over an hour practising clarinet. It's not permanent nor is it damage.

FullofWind	Apr 21 2012, 03:14 PM Post #4
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 262 Joined: 11-March 12 Member No.: 419209	QUOTE(sbhoa @ Apr 21 2012, 04:08 PM) And I currently have a small red mark just below my bottom lip as I've just spent a little over an hour practising clarinet. It's not permanent nor is it damage. How can you say it's not damage? That doesn't make logical sense. It may not be permanent but you have caused some damage, however minor, to your bottom lip! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

CJB	Apr 21 2012, 03:24 PM Post #5
Prodigy Group: Members Posts: 1963 Joined: 5-July 05 Member No.: 4076	QUOTE(Scooby Doo @ Apr 21 2012, 03:03 PM) I think the red marks we saw are only temporary - they all look OK in their interviews, no? I've never heard of any permanent damage from playing a brass instrument. I'm just watching the final now - amazing tuba player, and some interesting effects from the horn player too..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) whilst most of the brass players I know get some marks just after a long playing session they all recover pretty quickly. QUOTE(FullofWind @ Apr 21 2012, 04:14 PM) QUOTE(sbhoa @ Apr 21 2012, 04:08 PM) And I currently have a small red mark just below my bottom lip as I've just spent a little over an hour practising clarinet. It's not permanent nor is it damage. How can you say it's not damage? That doesn't make logical sense. It may not be permanent but you have caused some damage, however minor, to your bottom lip! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Me too. Unless I play a truely ludicrous amount it is mild discomfort and worth it for the pleasure I get from playing.

sbhoa	Apr 21 2012, 03:44 PM Post #6
Maestro Group: Members Posts: 19001 Joined: 31-October 03 From: Tameside Member No.: 24	QUOTE(FullofWind @ Apr 21 2012, 04:14 PM) QUOTE(sbhoa @ Apr 21 2012, 04:08 PM) And I currently have a small red mark just below my bottom lip as I've just spent a little over an hour practising clarinet. It's not permanent nor is it damage. How can you say it's not damage? That doesn't make logical sense. It may not be permanent but you have caused some damage, however minor, to your bottom lip! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Well, it doesn't hurt or even feel uncomfortable. So if I lean on something for too long and get a temporary red mark or imprint or if my hand or foot 'goes to sleep' is that damage which should also be avoided at all cost?

Bagpuss	Apr 21 2012, 04:32 PM Post #7
Virtuoso Group: Members Posts: 2228 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 371	My ex is a professional brass player and has no scars or permanent damage (well, not on his lip....). He says "black swimmers" are far more scary than a sore lip. Lip fatigue is a problem which is why people are employed as "bumpers" for the real tests of stamina in the orchestral repertoire. After a day's teaching my ears hurt. I do hope this isn't permanent damage. Raised-Eyebrow-Bag x

sbhoa	Apr 21 2012, 04:57 PM Post #8
Maestro Group: Members Posts: 19001 Joined: 31-October 03 From: Tameside Member No.: 24	By this reasoning is there any instrument that doesn't cause damage at least by the time you are competent enough to need to practice for longer?

Czerny	Apr 21 2012, 05:14 PM Post #9
Virtuoso Group: Members Posts: 4136 Joined: 7-December 07 Member No.: 21097	QUOTE(Bagpuss @ Apr 21 2012, 05:32 PM) My ex is a professional brass player and has no scars or permanent damage (well, not on his lip....). He says "black swimmers" are far more scary than a sore lip. Lip fatigue is a problem which is why people are employed as "bumpers" for the real tests of stamina in the orchestral repertoire. After a day's teaching my ears hurt. I do hope this isn't permanent damage. Raised-Eyebrow-Bag x Black swimmers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Bagpuss	Apr 21 2012, 05:27 PM Post #10
Virtuoso Group: Members Posts: 2228 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 371	Apparently this is the name for a rather nasty-sounding experience....when playing for a while up the top end of the register the blood supply is cut off to the brain. When the player stops playing the blood goes WHOOSH and ex says it feels like you're hit on the back of the head really sharply... Makes me glad to be a flautist... Bx

corenfa	Apr 21 2012, 06:02 PM Post #11
Virtuoso Group: Members Posts: 4286 Joined: 28-March 10 From: Here Member No.: 95861	I used to be a horn student, frequently was playing for hours with red marks on lips, and calluses on left hand. No longer a horn player or horn student, but have no marks on lips or calluses on left hand any more. I cannot physically tell that I used to be a horn player, except maybe my left hand is a bit more stretchy, but that's an advantage now as a pianist. I wouldn't say that playing horn was painful - maybe uncomfortable but not painful, same as when I go for yoga class I can definitely feel the stretch and I might be a bit achy afterwards but not in a damaging way. It's true that you do need a good teacher (whether of horn or yoga) in order to know what is a damaging sort of discomfort. I know my body quite well so I can tell in yoga class when to stop. Have just been playing piano - left arm definitely more tired. But it's still the sort of tired that means I've had a good go at it and hopefully will see technical improvement in a couple of days. If I had ever used just discomfort (not pain) as any sort of indicator of when I should stop practising either horn or piano, I'd never have got anywhere.

Scooby Doo	Apr 21 2012, 06:35 PM Post #12
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 628 Joined: 7-June 11 Member No.: 267513	QUOTE(Bagpuss @ Apr 21 2012, 06:27 PM) Apparently this is the name for a rather nasty-sounding experience....when playing for a while up the top end of the register the blood supply is cut off to the brain. When the player stops playing the blood goes WHOOSH and ex says it feels like you're hit on the back of the head really sharply... Makes me glad to be a flautist... Bx Now that does sound rather dangerous!

Cyrilla	Apr 21 2012, 09:31 PM Post #13
Maestro Group: Members Posts: 11957 Joined: 9-November 03 From: Croydon, South London/Surrey Member No.: 99	Off-topic but chuffed to see Christopher Dunn in the finals. I taught him Kodaly at Guildhall between the ages of 4 and 11. He was a violinist in those days!! I think Rosie91 was at school with him, too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

KixMusic	Apr 21 2012, 09:46 PM Post #14
Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 650 Joined: 3-January 06 Member No.: 5709	QUOTE(Scooby Doo @ Apr 21 2012, 07:35 PM) QUOTE(Bagpuss @ Apr 21 2012, 06:27 PM) Apparently this is the name for a rather nasty-sounding experience....when playing for a while up the top end of the register the blood supply is cut off to the brain. When the player stops playing the blood goes WHOOSH and ex says it feels like you're hit on the back of the head really sharply... Makes me glad to be a flautist... Bx Now that does sound rather dangerous! and like the ex used too much pressure when playing in the extreme register. No need for that to happen if good technique is applied (i.e. non pressure)

JimD	Apr 22 2012, 08:19 AM Post #15
Member Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 24-November 10 From: Washington UK Member No.: 159407	I you want to see real damage caused by brass playing, take a look at a close up photo of Louis Armstrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.jazz.com/assets/2007/11/6/louis_armstrong_5.JPG)

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