Piano teachers teaching singing, why? Options

[VerityG]

Before I start, I should point out that I mean piano teachers who have not studied singing, but think that after accompanying so many singers, they are fit to teacher singing.
I have only recently started teaching and I was wondering if any other singing teachers struggle with it? My old singing teacher said that she spends half her life correcting the mistakes taught by piano teachers teaching singing. In my own experience, I've been on here before talking about one of my young students, a 10yr old singer. She turned up to the first session, and sang exactly as I would expect a beginner to sing, her voice was completely raw. After the lesson, the mother told me that the girl had been taking singing lessons for a year and she had sung through the whole grade 2 book, could I please pick the songs for grade 2 and enter her for June. I was horrified that someone could have a year of lessons, yet sound so raw. There was no way I was putting her in for grade 2! With a bit of diplomacy I talked her out of it. At the next lesson, I quizzed the pupil and found out that it was her piano teacher who taught her and they had just sung four songs from the grade 1 book and then moved onto the grade 2 book. I'm so angry that this teacher led both mother and daughter to be believe that she was grade 2 standard when in fact she isn't even grade 1 standard! What a waste of a year's worth of lessons, thankfully the teacher did no damage, but she didn't do anything at all! What a waste of money. And I seriously worry about the teacher's methods in general when her only focus in the exams. The mother isn't musical and so she seems to have been led to believe that exams are all that music is about. It's such a shame for a girl of only 10. She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.
Verity
X

[miffy]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Possibly only if the notes have numbers above them though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

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[violincjj]

Best to move on from where you are now, fill in any gaps you feel are missing etc. Unless you know exact circumstances (or even if you do) it's best not to too verbal about a previous teacher and I assume this is her current piano teacher that she is still with? The girl sounds musical, so enjoy.
And look on the bright side, being taught singing by a piano teacher, she may even be able to read the music.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hides.gif)

Possibly only if the notes have numbers above them though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Blimey, it's not as easy as it used to be to start a squabble on here is it?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



It seems to me that singing teachers more than any other kind tend to disagree with their colleagues about methods. There are simply more ways of teaching and learning singing than there are of teaching and learing the piano, perhaps.

I don't think personally that there is anything at all wrong with being a 'song' teacher for young kids while also giving some very gentle hints about breathing and voice production, this can be done while 'doing no harm' and keeping the voice natural.

Maybe the piano teacher can do this! Or the violin teacher!

[AnnC]

1) It seems to me that singing teachers more than any other kind tend to disagree with their colleagues about methods. There are simply more ways of teaching and learning singing than there are of teaching and learing the piano, perhaps.

2) I don't think personally that there is anything at all wrong with being a 'song' teacher for young kids while also giving some very gentle hints about breathing and voice production, this can be done while 'doing no harm' and keeping the voice natural.

Maybe the piano teacher can do this! Or the violin teacher!

1) Possibly - since there is more than one genre of singing. Classical vocal setup is not the same as pop belt, as Broadway belt, as rock, etc. That includes breathing methods, too.

2) Well, maybe. Nothing wrong with teaching songs per se, but how many times have we heard on the Voice forum about school music teachers expecting little Susie to learn a song which has notes in it she finds uncomfortably high? One size does not fit all. And Mrs Mother might well not differentiate between Susie learning songs and learning to sing. As far as she is concerned Susie is having singing lessons, and talks, and before long teacher has more "singing" pupils. Nice addition to her/his income! With a view to handing them on to "someone who knows what they are doing, of course," after about grade 3 (words actually said to me by a piano teacher). So no harm done?

I'm not sure what you mean about "gentle hints about breathing and voice production". Do piano/violin/pick your instrument teachers who have not studied singing know about this - I mean properly? And how to handle young voices - even some singing teachers shy away from this, or carry on in blissful ignorance, at worst ruining a voice, at best making no improvement.
I once asked a piano teacher to accompany some of my younger pupils at a festival. When she came to the rehearsal she asked me for some tips - "because I am not a singer, you know." Some years later I had a new starter who had had several years of singing lessons from the above teacher and really needed remedial work!
Another pupil had had four years of lessons with a different teacher - this time a drama one. it took me a year to get rid of her wobble, while another student who had been to the same teacher couldn't sing more than five notes without taking a breath!
Not picking an argument, Violincjj - you just kindly brought up a few points I wanted to answer from the other perspective.
Sorry - I'm with the OP and Dugazon on this one. I am allegedly around grade 8 standard on the piano (former piano teacher says) but I wouldn't dream of teaching it, even if I were down on my last penny. Leave it to the experts, I say. Trouble is, as everyone sings, some think they know how to teach it - or at least not do any harm. In my opinion, these can be the most dangerous kind of teachers because they are unaware of the harm they may cause.
I wonder what a (proper) singing teacher would say about how other-instrument-teachers-of-songs sing? Food for thought.

[violincjj]

I'm not sure what you mean about "gentle hints about breathing and voice production". Do piano/violin/pick your instrument teachers who have not studied singing know about this - I mean properly? And how to handle young voices - even some singing teachers shy away from this, or carry on in blissful ignorance, at worst ruining a voice, at best making no improvement.
Not picking an argument, Violincjj - you just kindly brought up a few points I wanted to answer from the other perspective.
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I guess I mean things like the things that my school class music teacher told us in the days when we all sang songs in music lessons? They didn't profess to be expert 'singing teachers' but they encouraged everyone to find their voice and enjoy using it. This doesn't seem to happen any more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I am sure I don't know everything at all about teaching kids singing (as well as violin) but I am sure I am not doing any harm. They seem to be doing well, I have some who got into NYCGB and another has a Choristership at a specialist music school, they get good marks and comments in exams and festivals.

They don't sing innappropriate songs in unsuitable clothes accompanied by arm waving either, unlike the pupils of a local teacher who is Very Qualified! I think one cannot generalise about all this really.

[Cyrilla]

I guess I mean things like the things that my school class music teacher told us in the days when we all sang songs in music lessons? They didn't profess to be expert 'singing teachers' but they encouraged everyone to find their voice and enjoy using it. This doesn't seem to happen any more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

*small voice*

Some of us do try...

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[Maizie]

*small voice*

Some of us do try...

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I have a list of people to be cloned when I finally invent a cloning device and rule the world. I shall add Cyrilla to this list, issuing one Cyrilla per school (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)