Piano teachers teaching singing, why? Options

[VerityG]

Before I start, I should point out that I mean piano teachers who have not studied singing, but think that after accompanying so many singers, they are fit to teacher singing.
I have only recently started teaching and I was wondering if any other singing teachers struggle with it? My old singing teacher said that she spends half her life correcting the mistakes taught by piano teachers teaching singing. In my own experience, I've been on here before talking about one of my young students, a 10yr old singer. She turned up to the first session, and sang exactly as I would expect a beginner to sing, her voice was completely raw. After the lesson, the mother told me that the girl had been taking singing lessons for a year and she had sung through the whole grade 2 book, could I please pick the songs for grade 2 and enter her for June. I was horrified that someone could have a year of lessons, yet sound so raw. There was no way I was putting her in for grade 2! With a bit of diplomacy I talked her out of it. At the next lesson, I quizzed the pupil and found out that it was her piano teacher who taught her and they had just sung four songs from the grade 1 book and then moved onto the grade 2 book. I'm so angry that this teacher led both mother and daughter to be believe that she was grade 2 standard when in fact she isn't even grade 1 standard! What a waste of a year's worth of lessons, thankfully the teacher did no damage, but she didn't do anything at all! What a waste of money. And I seriously worry about the teacher's methods in general when her only focus in the exams. The mother isn't musical and so she seems to have been led to believe that exams are all that music is about. It's such a shame for a girl of only 10. She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.
Verity
X

[ExpressYourself]

I don't disagree with you but I wondered what you meant by raw.

With young students at G1 level I try and keep them sounding as natural as possible. We work on some technique for warming up the voice, breathing and if necessary some neck anchoring or retraction to help pitching. I wonder what people might think of my students if they took them on later. Especially since I am also a piano teacher.

[fatar760]

I don't disagree with you but I wondered what you meant by raw.

With young students at G1 level I try and keep them sounding as natural as possible. We work on some technique for warming up the voice, breathing and if necessary some neck anchoring or retraction to help pitching. I wonder what people might think of my students if they took them on later. Especially since I am also a piano teacher.

May I ask what neck anchoring is? Sounds rather dangerous....

Before I start, I should point out that I mean piano teachers who have not studied singing, but think that after accompanying so many singers, they are fit to teacher singing.
I have only recently started teaching and I was wondering if any other singing teachers struggle with it? My old singing teacher said that she spends half her life correcting the mistakes taught by piano teachers teaching singing. In my own experience, I've been on here before talking about one of my young students, a 10yr old singer. She turned up to the first session, and sang exactly as I would expect a beginner to sing, her voice was completely raw. After the lesson, the mother told me that the girl had been taking singing lessons for a year and she had sung through the whole grade 2 book, could I please pick the songs for grade 2 and enter her for June. I was horrified that someone could have a year of lessons, yet sound so raw. There was no way I was putting her in for grade 2! With a bit of diplomacy I talked her out of it. At the next lesson, I quizzed the pupil and found out that it was her piano teacher who taught her and they had just sung four songs from the grade 1 book and then moved onto the grade 2 book. I'm so angry that this teacher led both mother and daughter to be believe that she was grade 2 standard when in fact she isn't even grade 1 standard! What a waste of a year's worth of lessons, thankfully the teacher did no damage, but she didn't do anything at all! What a waste of money. And I seriously worry about the teacher's methods in general when her only focus in the exams. The mother isn't musical and so she seems to have been led to believe that exams are all that music is about. It's such a shame for a girl of only 10. She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.
Verity
X

This would concern me more

[owainsutton]

She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.

This would concern me more

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Regarding singing, us string teacher have to get pupils singing. I've started taking this to the extent of actually giving them songs to learn, and I've plucked many from the Grade 1 repertoire simpy because I don't know enough to judge the level otherwise. However, I'm certainly not presenting it to them as 'teaching singing', just getting them used to using their voices, especially in relation to pitches, intervals and tonal centres.

Maybe one or two of them will unintentionally misrepresent this to others, in that their violin teacher 'also taught/teaches them singing', but I can't help that.

[fatar760]

She's currently studying for grade 5 theory and her grade 6 piano.

This would concern me more

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood

[Arundodonuts]

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood

Surely it depends how long she has been at it? On the BBC Young Musician programme it was mentioned that one competitor went from Grade 6 to 8 in 6 months aged 8. He appears to have understood it all since he got to the keyboard final.

I know a couple of oboists whose first instrument was piano. One started aged 7 and the other 2!

[fatar760]

Why? Do you mean because she hasn't got the theory out of the way by now? What if she's well-paced to be taking it a term or two before the Grade 6 practical?

Because she's 10 years old and it sounds like she's been pushed through exam after exam. Will be surprised if much of that had been truly learnt and understood

Surely it depends how long she has been at it? On the BBC Young Musician programme it was mentioned that one competitor went from Grade 6 to 8 in 6 months aged 8. He appears to have understood it all since he got to the keyboard final.

I know a couple of oboists whose first instrument was piano. One started aged 7 and the other 2!

I'm quite certain there are exceptions - but given the context of the OP concerns, it rather sounds to me like this girl has been pushed through exams beyond her level. And that this trend is about to continue with Grade 6 piano and Grade 5 theory is, I think, a cause for concern.

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

[Dugazon]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

Although I wasn't the one who brought it up:

All forms of anchoring, of which neck anchoring is a part, are a way to take stress off the larynx/vocal folds via muscular support. Neck anchoring means stabilising the vocal tract from the back (Semispinalis) and front/sides (SCMs) - the latter are the muscles which some people have trouble telling apart from bulging neck veins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) .

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsys...s/tutorial.html

The page Arundodonuts posted also explains it, although it might leave you under the impression it can feel rather tense, which it doesn't if done properly. It's certainly not a "secret", but you are unlikely to come across it if you don't take singing lessons (which maybe proves a point about the difference between teaching technique and teaching songs. You don't have to bombard your students with jargon btw in case anyone thinks so - you simply show them what to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

If you want to delve a bit deeper, maybe have a look at "Singing and the Actor" (although here, the term used is "external anchoring"), or think about an Estill workshop.

[fatar760]

I'd still like to know what neck anchoring is if anyone can tell me....?

Although I wasn't the one who brought it up:

All forms of anchoring, of which neck anchoring is a part, are a way to take stress off the larynx/vocal folds via muscular support. Neck anchoring means stabilising the vocal tract from the back (Semispinalis) and front/sides (SCMs) - the latter are the muscles which some people have trouble telling apart from bulging neck veins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) .

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsys...s/tutorial.html

The page Arundodonuts posted also explains it, although it might leave you under the impression it can feel rather tense, which it doesn't if done properly. It's certainly not a "secret", but you are unlikely to come across it if you don't take singing lessons (which maybe proves a point about the difference between teaching technique and teaching songs. You don't have to bombard your students with jargon btw in case anyone thinks so - you simply show them what to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

If you want to delve a bit deeper, maybe have a look at "Singing and the Actor" (although here, the term used is "external anchoring"), or think about an Estill workshop.

Well I do know about anchoring and am fairly familiar (and do own a copy of) the Gillian Kayes book - but I've never heard of neck anchoring. If anything, and I do understand what you are saying about the neck muscles, I'd personally look to avoid ANY anchoring in the neck and would feel it safer, perhaps, to target other areas in the body to increase support (such as the shoulder/back muscles)

[AnnC]

Well I do know about anchoring and am fairly familiar (and do own a copy of) the Gillian Kayes book - but I've never heard of neck anchoring. If anything, and I do understand what you are saying about the neck muscles, I'd personally look to avoid ANY anchoring in the neck and would feel it safer, perhaps, to target other areas in the body to increase support (such as the shoulder/back muscles)

And there you might be unwittingly causing problems - shoulder tension is one of the most common problems for singers, especially untrained ones, but experienced singers can suffer, too. Personally, I never mention shoulders, unless there is a problem. I believe that mentioning an area, be it shoulders, neck, tongue, whatever, puts unnecessary focus on it and, in fact, can cause a problem where none existed before (don't fix what ain't broke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ). That's why group lessons, in my opinion, are unwise. And why technique is best left to a "proper" singing teacher who can HEAR in the voice where the problem is in the body and offer bespoke remedial action.

[fatar760]

Well I do know about anchoring and am fairly familiar (and do own a copy of) the Gillian Kayes book - but I've never heard of neck anchoring. If anything, and I do understand what you are saying about the neck muscles, I'd personally look to avoid ANY anchoring in the neck and would feel it safer, perhaps, to target other areas in the body to increase support (such as the shoulder/back muscles)

And there you might be unwittingly causing problems - shoulder tension is one of the most common problems for singers, especially untrained ones, but experienced singers can suffer, too. Personally, I never mention shoulders, unless there is a problem. I believe that mentioning an area, be it shoulders, neck, tongue, whatever, puts unnecessary focus on it and, in fact, can cause a problem where none existed before (don't fix what ain't broke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ). That's why group lessons, in my opinion, are unwise. And why technique is best left to a "proper" singing teacher who can HEAR in the voice where the problem is in the body and offer bespoke remedial action.

Nahh - lots of presumption here.