The importance of a distinction Options

[Arundodonuts]

Are you trying to be perverse and argumentative?

No I'm just trying to be clear what you are suggesting.
I agree that if there was only pass or fail that the candidate would not be given a mark. I was just wondering what the pass mark would be (surely there is one for all exams?). Would you leave it at 100 or would you feel that if there were no merit or distinction categories the pass mark should be set higher?

Yes think it is not useful to have the sections we now have in the Grade exams. You can perform brilliantly yet do badly on the aural, scales and sight reading. Yet those three components are assessed at a quite superficial level compared to the performance part, so it is not a good test of general musicianship either.

OK

But if we are to have several sections in the grade exams then I think you should have to show you are up to scratch in all of them.

Yes I tend to agree. At the moment I'm inclined to think I would fail miserably on my scales and sightreading despite having been pretty good at earlier grades, which is why I have delayed my next exam entry again. Getting a "good" pass gives me the satisfaction that I've made a good job of it and not just scraped it. If I wasn't given a mark, I wouldn't have that satisfaction.

[FullofWind]

Why should the student not see the grade? I get very cross when this happens in ther areas of testing. We've paid and it's information pertaining to myself or my child so I have the right to know this information.

[Chris H]

Why should the student not see the grade? I get very cross when this happens in ther areas of testing. We've paid and it's information pertaining to myself or my child so I have the right to know this information.

I agree - one of the reasons one sits exams is to find out which areas need improvement, so marks are helpful to the pupil, teacher and also to the parent.

And I didn't say you couldn't get in without them. I just said that it was a valid concern, and certainly makes life easier when you don't have to keep asking your teacher for a letter of support. The view I was contesting was the one often stated on the forum that any pupil who wants to try to get a distinction clearly has a pushy parent behind them, has unreasonable expectations and is pointlessly devaluing the plain pass.

No, I know you weren't - and I agree with you about the pushy parent point. I just wanted to make it clear that entry to conservatoires etc are all about musicality, technique and playing ability rather than graded exams, so that applicants who don't have grade 8 distinction aren't put off applying.

[VH2]

Why should the student not see the grade? I get very cross when this happens in ther areas of testing. We've paid and it's information pertaining to myself or my child so I have the right to know this information.

If an exam were PASS/FAIL then there would be no grade to see. What you would still have is the examiners written appraisal, which is far more use than a mere number.

But this is all hypothetical, so you have nothing to worry about. The Grade system is not going to change any time soon. It will continue to award marks out of 100 or 150 (according to exam board), with a mish-mash of random or ;pointless elements alongside the performance itself, and four classes of result: Fail, Pass, Merit and Distinction.

[sbhoa]

Why should the student not see the grade? I get very cross when this happens in ther areas of testing. We've paid and it's information pertaining to myself or my child so I have the right to know this information.

If an exam were PASS/FAIL then there would be no grade to see. What you would still have is the examiners written appraisal, which is far more use than a mere number.

But this is all hypothetical, so you have nothing to worry about. The Grade system is not going to change any time soon. It will continue to award marks out of 100 or 150 (according to exam board), with a mish-mash of random or ;pointless elements alongside the performance itself, and four classes of result: Fail, Pass, Merit and Distinction.

Trinity have 'below pass 1' and 'below pass 2'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[FullofWind]

Why should the student not see the grade? I get very cross when this happens in ther areas of testing. We've paid and it's information pertaining to myself or my child so I have the right to know this information.

If an exam were PASS/FAIL then there would be no grade to see. What you would still have is the examiners written appraisal, which is far more use than a mere number.

But this is all hypothetical, so you have nothing to worry about. The Grade system is not going to change any time soon. It will continue to award marks out of 100 or 150 (according to exam board), with a mish-mash of random or ;pointless elements alongside the performance itself, and four classes of result: Fail, Pass, Merit and Distinction.

I don't think any of the elements are pointless. Sight-reading is an essential skill if one wants to join ensembles, scales teach perseverance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) and aural.. well I'll let someone else answer that!

[Chris H]

Perseverance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Scales and arpeggios are what pieces are built on, so they really help a lot with technique for playing, plus they help with intonation - they really are very useful.

[FullofWind]

Perseverance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Scales and arpeggios are what pieces are built on, so they really help a lot with technique for playing, plus they help with intonation - they really are very useful.

Whateva!

[VH2]

I don't think any of the elements are pointless. Sight-reading is an essential skill if one wants to join ensembles, scales teach perseverance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) and aural.. well I'll let someone else answer that!

No. You are right they are not pointless in themselves. They are an important part of musical education. But it is pointless to have them in the instrumental exams. They cannot be properly assessed in the tiny part of an exam that is given over to them, and they are not essential to the main skill - performing pieces to the required level.

Also, the sight reading is of a kind that is rarely useful in real life, there is little logic to the order in which scales are required at each grade, and the aural tests are too elementary and too limited in scope to properly assess the student's aural skills, and in the case of the piano do not even test the sorts of aural skill that are most useful to a pianist.

Yes scales and arpeggios are what a lot of music is built from, and yes they can be a useful way to learn about tonal music and learn co-ordination. There are top class pianists that swear by them, but there are others that claim never to have done much of them, but to have made exercises of the scale passages and arpeggios that occur in real music.

And why those three things? scales, aural (recognition of intervals, cadences, pulse, rhythm), sight reading (aiming at an accurate and musical performance after hardly any study)

Like I said it is a random mish-mash and not a well thought out and coherent set of skills.

Why not include some of these instead (or as well):

aural (dictation, recognising a modulation, hearing different degrees of legato/staccato, etc.)

improvisation (a melody given a chord sequence)

practical harmony (adding harmony to a melody, realising a figured bass)

play by ear - play back a short, simple piece after hearing it two or three times

a different kind of sight reading (missing out non-essentials in order to give a musical performance - like real-life accompanying at sight)

knowledge of different conventions and style in different periods of musical history

historical knowledge (musical eras, history of your instrument, lives of the composers)

etc. etc. None of these is assessed in an instrumental Grade.


I would still prefer to see the instrumental grades consisting of performance of a variety of pieces, and nothing else. To play well you need some sight-reading ability and aural skills, and you may have found it helpful to learn a stack of scales, but that extra stuff is implicit in the performance - which is ultimately what really matters, however you arrived at it. No-one is going to pay to hear a concert where you play scales, sight read, or recognize intervals and cadences.


And as another thread has been talking about pass/merit/distinction, it strikes me as ridiculous that someone could play the pieces very well, ace the scales, aural, and sight reading, and get a Distinction, while someone else could play the pieces magnificently, but be a slow sight-reader, not confident in aural, and never have practiced scales, and score a bare pass. Yet it is the second player that that can best entertain friends and family or could even have a performing career.

[Maizie]

practical harmony (adding harmony to a melody, realising a figured bass)

For AB harpsichordists, they have to realise a figured bass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And organists have to sight-transpose (which I think some brass might have to as well?)

With TG you can do improvisation at grade level exams (G1-5: two of sight reading, aural, musical knowledge, improv. G6-8 sight reading is mandatory, plus one of aural or improv).

On the one hand it would be useful to see supporting tests that were suited to the instrument (or indeed, with options to be suited to the candidate!) On the other hand, if you want generalist examiners, that's probably an argument for putting all candidates through the same set-up, to allow for examiner consistency especially on some of the less-examined instruments

[STRINGMUM]

The person who gets a distinction by playing well and doing well in the supporting tests might just be a better musician than the person who plays 3 pieces magnificently and bombs in the supporting tests. Perhaps the latter person has spent months working on three pieces and nothing else.

[Roseau]

To play well you need some sight-reading ability and aural skills, and you may have found it helpful to learn a stack of scales, but that extra stuff is implicit in the performance - which is ultimately what really matters, however you arrived at it.

This is what my French oboe teacher said to me when I asked him if all I had to do in the French music exam was play two pieces; ie what is important is the final result, not how you get there.

Interestingly, the music school does have what they call a "bilan" a year before pupils take an exam (not an easy word to translate but can mean "check up" in, for example, the phrase "a medical check up") For this pupils are required to play one piece which is supposed to be still a "work in progress" (ie not completely ready for performance) and a number of technical exercises which can include scales or studies or technical exercises or all three. This is supposed to identify weak points to work on before the exam.

[Chris H]

Perseverance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Scales and arpeggios are what pieces are built on, so they really help a lot with technique for playing, plus they help with intonation - they really are very useful.

Whateva!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) xxx

I have noticed that foreign (US and Dutch) conservatoires ask for technical studies at audition - probably a good idea.

[VH2]

The person who gets a distinction by playing well and doing well in the supporting tests might just be a better musician than the person who plays 3 pieces magnificently and bombs in the supporting tests. Perhaps the latter person has spent months working on three pieces and nothing else.

But when I attend a concert I don't care how good an all-round musician the player is, or how long they took to learn the pieces, just how well they play.

Besides, the AB has Musicianship exams to assess general musicianship.

[notmusimum]

Distinction is something to aim for even if it's not always achieved.

I suppose, maybe as a teacher, I look at this slightly differently. My view is that what's most important is that each pupil should be allowed to realise their potential. Some pupils, for many reasons, will not get a distinction. That's not to say that they're not going to do their best, but for many, particularly adults, an average pass (which is still 78%) is a fantastic achievement. My concern about this striving for distinctions is that it potentially devalues the results of those who don't make it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rewarding everyone, and distinctions and merits are fantastic results, but for many pupils, so are passes and I think it's sometimes easy to shuffle those aside. That's not a criticism of anything anyone's said here, but I do feel it's important that we celebrate all achievement.

I certainly wasn't intending to devalue any exam result and I totally appreciate that some people will work very hard to achieve a pass or merit. I think we are actually agreeing, as even though I didn't express myself very well, and this is taken out of context. As I also said even between candidates who achieve distinction there will be a huge difference.

I actually meant candidates should aim and be prepared for the best possible result. Those who can achieve merits and distinctions should have the opportunity to do so and not be deprived of excelling as not everyone can achieve the higher mark boundaries.

Not really related at all to this thread but could have been a good example of not being the "top" player.

Emsoboe lost all her oboe playing opportunities at around the same time. She's had a bit of a love hate relationship with the instrument since. She just managed a distinction at grade 8. Largely down to teacher support. In different circumstances she may have walked away. A year on and she has oboe playing opportunities coming out of her ears. I'd guess if she carries on like this over the next few months there would definately be enough experience to put on a personal statement if she wanted to study oboe at Conservatoire or if she needed any funding. The peeple contacting her to play for them don't care whether she has grade 8 distinction, merit or pass they are asking because they like her playing.