Arrangements, is it ok when the composer can't have a say? Options

[sbhoa]

Had an interesting discussion this morning.
Is it ok to make arrangements when the composer is not around to give an opinion. Are upbeat arrangements of classical music less ok than simplifications?
So is it fair to mess about with Beethoven's music (or anyone else) when he's not able to approve or otherwise?
Is it disrespectful?

[corenfa]

If you want to be really consistent, then yes, it is absolutely fair, if you count that Ravel orchestrated Pictures At An Exhibition in 1922, when Mussorgsky died in 1881.

[Seer_Green]

It's very difficult. Part of the problem I have is that many of the arrangements are very poor - arranging a piece isn't just about taking notes out to simplify it. We've really lost the 'art' of the arranger in this country and most of what's out there, including this one I suspect, is just a simplification.

As for messing about with Beethoven's music, I'm not sure... I think that as a composer, I accept, as we all do, that what might be performed will often be different to what we wrote on the page and how we imagined it. I don't think it particularly bothers me (and you can all do it as much as you like when I'm not here anymore because I probably won't know about it!).

I also cannot stand up-beat arrangements of classical music. They are unecessary - there is plenty of original up-beat classical music out there. Most of it is done to try and attract younger people to classical music (when will people learn!).

[Arundodonuts]

You can do what you want. It might not be to others taste but so what?

[balu114]

After a period of time their work becomes part of our shared culture.

Every year there are hundreds of different versions of Hamlets and Macbeth are staged all over the world. A friend of a friend was involved in a play called "Shakespeare in Kabul" with the play set in Kabul, with Afghan actors and dialogues in Dari. I don't think anyone could object to that!?

Also, arrangements and transcriptions has helped preserve various pieces of music where the original compositions have been lost. Many of Mozart's clarinet compositions are for Basset Horn/Clarinet but the originals have been lost forever.

[stetenorve]

Mozart "polished" a few bits of Handel's Messiah!

[corenfa]

To be fair it isn't just modern arrangements that can be rubbish - Grieg rewrote Mozart's Sonata K545 for two pianos. I think it sounds awful.

(Of course, I'm a nobody and Grieg was a somebody, so what do I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

[DaisyChain]

Any arrangement of the Ode To Joy (whether old Ludwig would approve or not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) has to be better than the arrangement I've seen and listened to of the first movement of 'The Moonlight' in F MAJOR! Oh dear.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Having said that, at least an easier (if far from better) arrangement helps beginner/intermediate students to get a feel for playing triplets etc before moving on to the arrangement 'proper' when they're more able.

[linda.ff]

To be fair it isn't just modern arrangements that can be rubbish - Grieg rewrote Mozart's Sonata K545 for two pianos. I think it sounds awful.

(Of course, I'm a nobody and Grieg was a somebody, so what do I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

I must be the only person who likes that piece.

Liszt wrote shedloads of transcriptions most of which I don't enjoy

[corenfa]

To be fair it isn't just modern arrangements that can be rubbish - Grieg rewrote Mozart's Sonata K545 for two pianos. I think it sounds awful.

(Of course, I'm a nobody and Grieg was a somebody, so what do I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )

I must be the only person who likes that piece.

Liszt wrote shedloads of transcriptions most of which I don't enjoy

Well, I might be the only person who hates it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I was actually told that Liszt's transcriptions were better music than the original stuff he wrote, but maybe the person who said that to me was dissing Liszt rather than complimenting him!!

[barry-clari]

I wonder what the original composers would have thought of this little lot...

Beethoven

Copland

J.S. Bach

Saint-Saens

Chopin

(for the record, I think they're all great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yay.gif) )

[Maizie]

I'd like to think that Bach and his contemporaries would be tickled pink that 300 years on, people still want to play his music! And on instruments he'd never imagined, so some liberties have to be taken.
I've just listened to a piece written by Chedeville, though he published it claiming it was by Vivaldi, which was originally for 'musette or flute or violin or any other instrument' (yes, that's what the original cover actually said!), but played on a sax...

Yes, of course, there are good arrangements and bad arrangements; does the existence of bad arrangements mean people shouldn't try to make good ones?

[Clarimoo]

I think that's how music works.... you hear a tune and you sing/play it yourself in your own way. That's what communication is about. It's nice to have the evidence available so that we can reproduce the composer's intentions but we don't have to all the time.

I don't like simplifications either... I'd rather accept that some pieces are beyond me (for the time being). But even though I don't like them I really don't care if other people do like them.

[Arundodonuts]

I wonder what the original composers would have thought of this little lot...

(for the record, I think they're all great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yay.gif) )

I dear Barry, not "Disco classics" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif)

ELP's Copland is however one of the great classics. Quite a bit of my early exposure to classical music came via ELP and the Nice.

I think the opposite "crossover" is generally just as bad - orchestral versions of rock.

Will this be a classic wind quintet in 200 years?

Zappa - Peaches en Regalia

[boneman]

As an arranger I would like to add that a good one can give an older piece a new lease of life or a "bad" tune some kind of respect.

Okay so alot of arrangers do not really do very much and usually just for kids at school etc.

There are some amazing people out there that do some fantastic work.