What's wrong with being a Baroque composer now?, Why does it matter when you were born? Options

[Norway]

Has anyone ever wondered why people composing in a modern style now would probably be taken seriously, but if they produced a marvelous work in Baroque style it wouldn't have a chance of getting accepted? I don't think it should matter when it was written.

[Roseau]

Has anyone ever wondered why people composing in a modern style now would probably be taken seriously, but if they produced a marvelous work in Baroque style it wouldn't have a chance of getting accepted? I don't think it should matter when it was written.

I don't know if this is altogether true.

Morricone's piece "Gabriel's Oboe" (written for the film The Mission) is a piece written in a baroque style which has had a certain success. It has been performed by orchestras and in cello recitals by Yo Yo Ma.

[Norway]

Yes but the establishment would scoff at it - it would get on Classic FM but that's about it.

[corenfa]

I'm probably not part of the establishment, but I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't buy it because when I look for new music, I want to hear something that is truly new. Not an indistinguishable derivative of some past composer. If a composer can't be bothered to find his or her own voice then I'm not interested in listening. I was a composition student for a time and did try to find my own style - probably didn't succeed or else I'd be a composer and not a computer programmer.

It does occur to me that I might have extreme views, as I'm not even usually interested in listening to other less well known contemporaries of famous composers! I listen to the Radio 3 overnight programme quite a lot at work and sometimes they play stuff by less well known composers - and I tend to have little interest in those either. To be fair to myself, I do listen to the pieces first before passing judgement as I keep wondering if I'm missing out on some unknown gems, but I haven't found many. I have found *modern* composers whom I like on that programme, but I just am not that bothered about minor classical or baroque composers. Heck, I'm not even that keen on some of the things by some major classical or baroque composers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I can do without listening to classical string quartets, and I'm a pianist who is not fond of most of the Beethoven sonatas.

I'm not saying I'm correct in any of the above, but that's just how I feel.

Edit: Upon re-reading, i see that I may have said something that could be seen as contradictory. Here, I say that "if a composer can't be bothered to find his or her own voice then I'm not interested in listening" while later on I describe that I went to an event where someone played their own work which I enjoyed but wouldn't buy. I see the two as different situations - the latter is an amateur event where we all come to play for each other and show what we have been working on, and so I appreciate his effort in composing and performing. The former would be if I was paying money for a performance.

[linda.ff]

I'm probably not part of the establishment, but I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't buy it because when I look for new music, I want to hear something that is truly new. Not an indistinguishable derivative of some past composer. If a composer can't be bothered to find his or her own voice then I'm not interested in listening. I was a composition student for a time and did try to find my own style - probably didn't succeed or else I'd be a composer and not a computer programmer.

It does occur to me that I might have extreme views, as I'm not even usually interested in listening to other less well known contemporaries of famous composers! I listen to the Radio 3 overnight programme quite a lot at work and sometimes they play stuff by less well known composers - and I tend to have little interest in those either. To be fair to myself, I do listen to the pieces first before passing judgement as I keep wondering if I'm missing out on some unknown gems, but I haven't found many. I have found *modern* composers whom I like on that programme, but I just am not that bothered about minor classical or baroque composers. Heck, I'm not even that keen on some of the things by some major classical or baroque composers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I can do without listening to classical string quartets, and I'm a pianist who is not fond of most of the Beethoven sonatas.

I'm not saying I'm correct in any of the above, but that's just how I feel.

So if you heard a piece of baroque music you hadn't heard before, and thought, my goodness, that's beautiful - and then found that actually it was a piece of what I suppose would be pastiche - would it suddenly sound less beautiful to you?

[Norway]

I don't know Gabriels' Oboe very well but I imagine that it was written "alla Albinoni oboe concerto slow movement" to have immediate popular appeal, and that's fine, but that's not really the sort of example I had in mind.

Say someone wrote a fine violin concerto in a Baroque style with their own voice (just like Bach and Handel did - they didn't invent Baroque style but had their own voices) and entered it for a serious composition competition. It wouldn't get anywhere. But if the very same piece were discovered in a Swiss library and the manuscript were dated 1742, that would be taken seriously and the establishment would be fighting over it! I think the only thing that should matter should be the quality of the music, not the date of birth of the person who composed it.

I think we must have missed out on lots of great music because of fashion!

[corenfa]

So if you heard a piece of baroque music you hadn't heard before, and thought, my goodness, that's beautiful - and then found that actually it was a piece of what I suppose would be pastiche - would it suddenly sound less beautiful to you?

Yes, it would sound less beautiful. I would feel a bit cheated. Even if I knew that someone had spent a lot of time and effort, I would still feel a bit cheated.

(Mind you, I'm not trying to justify any of this)

[linda.ff]

So if you heard a piece of baroque music you hadn't heard before, and thought, my goodness, that's beautiful - and then found that actually it was a piece of what I suppose would be pastiche - would it suddenly sound less beautiful to you?

Yes, it would sound less beautiful. I would feel a bit cheated. Even if I knew that someone had spent a lot of time and effort, I would still feel a bit cheated.

(Mind you, I'm not trying to justify any of this)

So what you know about a piece of music affects your aesthetic enjoyment of it?

[Norway]

My understanding of pastiche, is copying someone else's voice. It is possible to write in a style (eg Baroque) with your own voice and without it being pastiche. No one accuses Handel of pastiching Bach - because he didn't. It is fine to be influenced by other composers - practically all composer are.

[corenfa]

So if you heard a piece of baroque music you hadn't heard before, and thought, my goodness, that's beautiful - and then found that actually it was a piece of what I suppose would be pastiche - would it suddenly sound less beautiful to you?

Yes, it would sound less beautiful. I would feel a bit cheated. Even if I knew that someone had spent a lot of time and effort, I would still feel a bit cheated.

(Mind you, I'm not trying to justify any of this)

So what you know about a piece of music affects your aesthetic enjoyment of it?

Yes. The more I know about it, the more interested I am, as that gives me several more dimensions to think about. That's why I liked studying music theory and history.

(Or maybe that is just what I tell myself to justify being such a swot)

[corenfa]

My understanding of pastiche, is copying someone else's voice. It is possible to write in a style (eg Baroque) with your own voice and without it being pastiche. No one accuses Handel of pastiching Bach - because he didn't. It is fine to be influenced by other composers - practically all composer are.

True. Stravinsky's Pulcinella and Prokofiev's Classical Symphony are perhaps two examples.

I actually really like modern music that uses elements of "old stuff". That was the sort of music that I would have wanted to write.

However even though the Classical Symphony has elements of the Classical Style, most people wouldn't consider it as a "Classical" piece - I think it's generally regarded as a modern piece written in the Classical Style. Is that the sort of Baroque music you mean? If it sounded too much like Bach/Handel/etc, it might easily be considered pastiche. But if it had modern harmony it would immediately not be considered Baroque.

[Norway]

I think there are universal elements to music and (for want of a better term) cultural ones, and that pieces contain these elements to a greater or lesser extent. I would see Bach and Shostakovich as pretty universal - I don't need to be Lutheran or to have lived under Stalin to understand their music - it seems to me that they are working with universal emotions which others (once used to their musical language) can relate to in the context of their own lives. Some other composers are possibly more reliant on listeners sharing their cultural background and knowing things about it for a full appreciation, and that's fine too. Also, listeners will vary as to whether background info enhances their appreciation of a particular piece or not. But I think that if someone wrote a high quality strongly universal piece in Baroque style, it would cross all time and cultural boundaries. I wouldn't mind if that person were from 21st Century Thailand.

[Norway]

I actually really like modern music that uses elements of "old stuff". That was the sort of music that I would have wanted to write.

However even though the Classical Symphony has elements of the Classical Style, most people wouldn't consider it as a "Classical" piece - I think it's generally regarded as a modern piece written in the Classical Style. Is that the sort of Baroque music you mean? If it sounded too much like Bach/Handel/etc, it might easily be considered pastiche. But if it had modern harmony it would immediately not be considered Baroque.
[/quote]
No that's not what I had in mind. I mean an authentic Baroque voice which does actually sound like Bach/ Handel and anyone else around then because it employs similar technical features (forms, harmonies, ornaments etc) but the composer would convey their own message through this medium. Basically, just like any another Baroque composer, but living now.

[Roseau]

No that's not what I had in mind. I mean an authentic Baroque voice which does actually sound like Bach/ Handel and anyone else around then because it employs similar technical features (forms, harmonies, ornaments etc) but the composer would convey their own message through this medium. Basically, just like any another Baroque composer, but living now.

I am not sure that this is possible without it being a pastiche. As you said, composers are influenced by other composers, the musical experience of a modern composer is necesarily different from that of Bach and Handel (to quote the two examples you give). After all, Shostakovich also wrote Preludes and Fugues in all the major and minor keys but they are not baroque.

[Norway]

Does anyone else's brain spontaneously generate Baroque/ Medieval/ Renaissance etc music? Or am I due a visit from someone in a white coat?