Lost in translation?, for the linguists amongst us Options

[BerkshireMum]

Whilst on holiday in France, we visited the chateau of Jumilhac in Perigord. I bought the English version of the guide book, thinking that there might be too many unknown words in the French original. The translation is wonderful - it strings together many indisputably English words into a glorious whole without ever quite succeeding in being English. We have had a lovely laugh over it, and hope you will appreciate the excerpts below:

"It is only in 1927 that the castle of Jumilhac, repurchased by the future marquis of Jumilhac and then leaved to his daughter, Mrs the countess of La Tour-du-Pin Chambly, returned to glorious family of its builders which rised up to the first rank in the army and the Church."

"The roofs of Jumilhac, lightly broken and projecting over, have not finished to let go the imagination and to raise up the heartiest admiration by the incredible lightness that they impart to the whole edifice."

"But, lightly fortified though it may be, it keeps however the small market town at respectful distance by its thick and hight defensive walls and its machicolations, and it draws without any fear near the church which, from the earliest times, gets under the patronage and the protection of the landlords who have taken up one's sepulture in."

"Louise de Hautefort, suspected to keep up a sweet idyll, should have been kept in confinement by her jealous husband. Spinning wool all day long, she transmitted amorous messages, owing to the complicity of her spindles, with her squire who was engaged as a shepherd in the service of the castle for not catching the eye of the guardians, situated one floor below."

The final sentence is a masterpiece, somehow conveying the poetry of the original through the weirdness of the translation:

"And when, above the hips of the roofs, the moon should catch the ceremonious reverences and frivolous matters, breaking off the opal silence, the voice of a nightingale hidden in the park would fill up each heart, as a declamatory speech of Shakespear, this languorous anxiety of his destiny to which the man owes the high value of his best instants of glory and love."

I really think that all English-speaking students of foreign languages should be given some of these sentences as an illustration of the folly of word-for-word translations using a dictionary! Still wondering who they persuaded to do the translation and how much they paid for it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tortellini]

Still wondering who they persuaded to do the translation and how much they paid for it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My guess would be that they either paid very little or got someone's (non-English speaking) niece or nephew to do the job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) I work as a translator in Italy and, unfortunately, there is not much money in translating as it seems that anyone who once studied English at school and has access to Google can do it more quickly and most importantly FOR LESS MONEY than me....sigh...

I once had to oversee the recruitment of an official translator for the website of our local council. Out of the thirty people who turned up to do the translation test, several had never studied English (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) . Nobody was able to translate the text - and I don't mean there were a few missed apostrophes - they made your translation look expert! I said none of them were suitable for the job but I know that they still employed one of them!

[Swell Box]

Going back to the 1970's I remember the Engrish in some Japanese Owner's Manuals left a lot to be desired!

That was in the day's when 'Only nicest people ride a Honda'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SB

[anacrusis]

As we have a German-speaking branch of the family, as well as the English-speaking one, we have fun deliberately translating idioms word-for-word in both directions. They're very much in-jokes, so I'm not going to reproduce them here.

However, I would point out that in general it's the English speaking countries which seem to assume that all others ought to master their language, and are ready to laugh at the results of foreigners' efforts: yet our own language teaching is generally so poor, far too little, much too late, that we are in danger of seeming hypocritical on this one. I was utterly ashamed to sit in a railway carriage watching a young woman swiftly rendering one person's words into four different languages in a row in the Netherlands many years ago - just an ordinary woman, translating fluidly and without fuss. It certainly put my daft pride in my own bilinguality into perspective....

[maggiemay]

No doubt you'll be familiar with this one ...

Wash and dry on left side only.

[BerkshireMum]

As we have a German-speaking branch of the family, as well as the English-speaking one, we have fun deliberately translating idioms word-for-word in both directions. They're very much in-jokes, so I'm not going to reproduce them here.

However, I would point out that in general it's the English speaking countries which seem to assume that all others ought to master their language, and are ready to laugh at the results of foreigners' efforts: yet our own language teaching is generally so poor, far too little, much too late, that we are in danger of seeming hypocritical on this one. I was utterly ashamed to sit in a railway carriage watching a young woman swiftly rendering one person's words into four different languages in a row in the Netherlands many years ago - just an ordinary woman, translating fluidly and without fuss. It certainly put my daft pride in my own bilinguality into perspective....

You are probably right. My daughter, a linguist, has always been annoyed by those of her friends who saw no virtue in learning another language because "everyone speaks English now". She had a poor time at GCSE because in her day, everyone was supposed to do a language, so both her French and German classes were dominated by children with no wish to be there. This just made learning very difficult for those who were interested. I also agree that GCSE standard is rather low. My son, who did German rather than French at GCSE, speaks and understands French much better than German, simply because he has been to France perhaps 10 times in his life, but has been to Germany only once.

It has always surprised me that each time I go to France I am complimented on my French; in fact this time one receptionist asked me whether I lived in the area, and told me that I speak better French than the English who do live there! This is amazing, given the fact that I have had no formal French lessons since O-level in 1969, and never speak or read French other than in France on holiday every 2 years or so. It simply brings home to me how much worse most other English people's French must be, as my own is really nowhere near fluent.

I should add that in the main, English translations in France are much better than they used to be. I think the chateau guide book had been done quite a while ago, and we found it amusing partly because it made us realise how our attempts at speaking French might sound to a native speaker.

[Cyrilla]

"And when, above the hips of the roofs, the moon should catch the ceremonious reverences and frivolous matters, breaking off the opal silence, the voice of a nightingale hidden in the park would fill up each heart, as a declamatory speech of Shakespear, this languorous anxiety of his destiny to which the man owes the high value of his best instants of glory and love."

Wonderful - love it. As you say - a masterpiece..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Swell Box]

As we have a German-speaking branch of the family, as well as the English-speaking one, we have fun deliberately translating idioms word-for-word in both directions. They're very much in-jokes, so I'm not going to reproduce them here.

However, I would point out that in general it's the English speaking countries which seem to assume that all others ought to master their language, and are ready to laugh at the results of foreigners' efforts: yet our own language teaching is generally so poor, far too little, much too late, that we are in danger of seeming hypocritical on this one. I was utterly ashamed to sit in a railway carriage watching a young woman swiftly rendering one person's words into four different languages in a row in the Netherlands many years ago - just an ordinary woman, translating fluidly and without fuss. It certainly put my daft pride in my own bilinguality into perspective....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Very true. I was working in the Netherlands and staying at an hotel near to Alkmaar when the allied forces were celebrating fifty years since VE day. We had the joy of a coach party staying at the hotel one weekend, and I was quite ashamed to overhear one English gentleman being very rude about the Dutch and the Germans over breakfast. His wife told him to shut up several times, but he told her "they're all cloggies over here; they won't understand what we're saying". How wrong can you be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

SB

[Tenor Viol]

As we have a German-speaking branch of the family, as well as the English-speaking one, we have fun deliberately translating idioms word-for-word in both directions. They're very much in-jokes, so I'm not going to reproduce them here.

However, I would point out that in general it's the English speaking countries which seem to assume that all others ought to master their language, and are ready to laugh at the results of foreigners' efforts: yet our own language teaching is generally so poor, far too little, much too late, that we are in danger of seeming hypocritical on this one. I was utterly ashamed to sit in a railway carriage watching a young woman swiftly rendering one person's words into four different languages in a row in the Netherlands many years ago - just an ordinary woman, translating fluidly and without fuss. It certainly put my daft pride in my own bilinguality into perspective....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Very true. I was working in the Netherlands and staying at an hotel near to Alkmaar when the allied forces were celebrating fifty years since VE day. We had the joy of a coach party staying at the hotel one weekend, and I was quite ashamed to overhear one English gentleman being very rude about the Dutch and the Germans over breakfast. His wife told him to shut up several times, but he told her "they're all cloggies over here; they won't understand what we're saying". How wrong can you be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

SB

It sometimes happens the other way round.... I was on holiday in Kenya many years ago with a largeish group of people (this was an organised trip and there were about 30 of us altogether). Members of a well-known German football team were also staying there (it's a long time ago so I couldn't possibly afford the kind of places they'd stay in now!). They were very obviously being extremely rude about the Brits.

After two days of this, two of my friends strolled into breakfast, speaking fluent idiomatic German as they passed the footballers. They looked shocked. My friends said 'good morning' to them in idiomatic style and switched to English. My friends were both bilingual in German/English.

They were rather polite after that.

Overall though the points you make are fair. My French is O Level vintage 1976. Not studied it since. Had regular skiiing holidays in France adn that's about it. My choir had an exchange with a French choir two weekends ago and I hosted two French people for 4 days and spoke nothing but French in my house the whole time. I am told that my accent is quite good and that I make myself clear. Biggest challenge is shortage of vocab....

[Swell Box]

It sometimes happens the other way round.... I was on holiday in Kenya many years ago with a largeish group of people (this was an organised trip and there were about 30 of us altogether). Members of a well-known German football team were also staying there (it's a long time ago so I couldn't possibly afford the kind of places they'd stay in now!). They were very obviously being extremely rude about the Brits.

After two days of this, two of my friends strolled into breakfast, speaking fluent idiomatic German as they passed the footballers. They looked shocked. My friends said 'good morning' to them in idiomatic style and switched to English. My friends were both bilingual in German/English.

They were rather polite after that.

I like it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mind you, I occasionally have to spend a few days in a large Victorian hotel in Cornwall, which has a certain Fawlty Towers feel about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The last time I stayed there they had a coach party of elderly Germans guests, and I suspect that Basil had chosen the Dining Hall background music especially for the occasion. This included British military band music, The Dam Busters March, 633 Squadron, Spitfire Prelude, Rule Britannia and other favourites. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SB

[anacrusis]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ill.gif)
on behalf of my fellow Germans, thank goodness they'd probably not recognise all that tripe....

[dolce@piano]

The local tourist office of a very famous village near where I live issues a flyer (thick paper, full colour, very swanky in fact) which is in full-size English print on one side and half-size French print on the other.

I spent 10 minutes looking at the English text, trying to work out what they were trying to say before I finally gave up and turned over to read the French - Oh ! So THAT'S what you mean . . . .

[Tortellini]

Of course menus (or should that be menu's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ) are notorious for being badly translated. Quite often when I am out with my parents in Italy we get given the "English" menu and it sounds quite unappetizing!

[Crotchetymum]

I love it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) It's such a bad translation and yet it conveys such character. I agree that the last sentence is a masterpiece; I also particularly like Louise de Hautefort and the complicity of her spindles.

I once had to copy-edit a book written by an Italian author on something like Globalisation (my memory defeats me) and it read as though the author had sat at his computer with one hand typing and the other hand holding an Italian-English dictionary. I have no Italian at all, and yet for most of the book I was trying to guess what he had meant to write, by working out what words he must have originally written to lead him to the translations that he had used. And this was for a very reputable publisher! Goodness knows whether the final product said what it was intended to say. I tried to hand it back after the first couple of chapters but was asked to keep at it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[maggiemay]

I did this job for a while in Japan for a well-known international trading company.

I have a collection somewhere ...............