Hard Statistics On Adult Learning? Options

[celloguy]

Hello to everybody here, and thanks for this very interesting forum. This post is a sort of request to the ABRSM...

As adult instrument learners, I think we're often plagued by doubts about whether we can progress as rapidly or as far as children. We all know the encouraging and discouraging arguments here, and I won't repeat them.

What would be interesting would be to see some hard statistics comparing the ABRSM exam performance of child starters and adult starters. [By adult starters I mean people who take up their first instrument after say age 30.] Is there a significant difference between child and adult starters' mean marks in Grades 1 - 5? What about Grades 6 - 8? Do adult starters tend to progress through the grade system more or less rapidly than children? Do adult starters tend to stop at around Grade 5, or is the proportion who progress to higher grades similar to that among children?

Any chance of the ABRSM publishing some statistics of this type? Or even just posting some informal subjective observations? Though if the latter, brutally honest please :)

Many thanks!

[onion]

Hi celloguy,

I don't know enough about the information that the ABRSM collect to know whether they can extract that information, but one idea that might be useful would be to ask the various organisations around the country that offer tution to adult starters. Admittedly it would exclude those adults learning with private tutors but might be a start. It is hard to see how the ABRSM would have the information about the other instruments that adults have played or not in the past and when they started lessons.

Certainly in the adult learners orchestra that I go to there are a variety of people with different levels of prior learning, but progress seems more closely related to motivation and time spent practicing rather - which are variables it is hard to factor for.

it would be interesting to hear how many people do start from scratch as adults and go on to do the higher grades (6-8).

good luck with your learning and your questions

lis

[Fletch]

No one at the ABRSM, or anyone else for that matter, has ever asked me for my date of birth when nearing the date for/or attending an exam. I would guess then, that the board have no knowledge of the ages of any students at all, and would be unable to provide the information you seek.
However, exam statistics for the UK can be found herehttp://www.abrsm.org/?page=press/factfile/...ticalStats.html
which can give you the facts about how many actually take the exams

[Andy-piano-flute]

As far as I'm aware (from talking to instrumental teachers and other sources) , there are relatively few adult learners who do the higher grades. Talking to the lady who does the stewarding at the local centre she would agree with that. (She greets me as a long lost friend, and remembers my name, as though I am some sort of rare breed!!)

[capriwidow]

Hi
I agree with Andy-piano-flute. I took my grade 7 clarinet last term and was greeted with surpise especially as have only been playing for 4 years! I know of one other adult clarinet player who is taking exams - she's just passed Grade 3.

I do think that the requirement to have Grade 5 Theory before being able to go onto the higher grades puts some people off. If you are one of those people please do not be put off - Grade 5 theory is passable - it's not impossible and should not be a barrier to some-one who really wants to progress to the higher grades.

My advise to any-one is have a go. The sense of achievement and satisfaction is well worth it.

Capriwidow.

[AmandaL]

I've taught both children and adults. With complete beginners, ie. no previous musical experience or learning, all age groups learn at the same rate, but if it is a second or third instrument they've taken up progress can be extremely rapid, especially in adults and teenagers.

It's easier to explain technical aspects to adults and for them to take the concept on board without too much trouble, while young children usually need a simpler approach and more complex issues have to be dealt with in small chunks - the latter sometimes slow progress down, but it can also depend on the age of the child, how quick they mentally tag onto the concept and whether they have good hand-eye co-ordination.

The one problem I do find with teaching the violin, is that adult arms, hands and fingers can sometimes be a bit rigid - especially the left arm in the more 'mature' student - and require a little more coaxing to form the correct shape over the fingerboard. However, with perseverance and lots of practice, flexibility can be improved considerably.

I've not yet had an adult student brave enough to take an exam. Most of them feel they are just learning for their own enjoyment and while they can see the value of benchmarking, it's no use putting them into stressful situations if exams are not what they want to do. I always teach with the philosophy that music lessons should be pleasurable and fun, not a chore or something to dread.

At the end of the day, no matter what the age of the student, if they want to progress then they need motivation and commitment.

[sarah-flute]

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 13 2005, 09:35 PM)

The one problem I do find with teaching the violin, is that adult arms, hands and fingers can sometimes be a bit rigid - especially the left arm in the more 'mature' student - and require a little more coaxing to form the correct shape over the fingerboard. However, with perseverance and lots of practice, flexibility can be improved considerably.

I've read that if you start the violin by about age 7, your muscles actually develop differently... so it's easy to see how this could be much harder for adults. I know that even though I'm not a great violinist, I find holding it perfectly natural because I've been doing it for nearly 20 years, and when I try to show others how to hold it they find it incredibly awkward.

[vermillion]

What's a hard statistic? Is it one where its correlation with another factor is 1.

[sarah-flute]

It's one without soft edges ;)

I guess it just means not assumptions or guesswork.

[celloguy]

Very many thanks for these replies. It may be the case that the ABRSM doesn't collect sufficient information to allow any sort of detailed analysis: and of course I realize that whatever the "hard statistics" might say about adult learners in general, we're all different. Still, it'd be nice to see statistics of this type, if for no other reason than to refute (or support) the widely held view that adults don't progress as fast or as far as children.

I should have clarified my own situation. I'm a slow-but-tenacious cello learner entering my third year. I plan to sit Grade 3 in November/December: as long as I don't suffer extreme nervousness, I think I should be able to get a decent pass, i.e. I think I'm doing OK. I've certainly seen a few child violin/cello learners who are doing much better than me: but also plenty who are doing no better or worse (though most of these children no doubt practice much less than I do). For the future: I'm not especially daunted by the theory exam, but I suspect that if and when I reach the higher grades I may only be able to get scrape passes at best, because of things like slow sight-reading and inadequate dexterity. Still, only time will tell. My own belief (not based on statistics either hard or soft) is that a dedicated adult should be able to progress to upper-intermediate or advanced amateur level, but that the higher levels are basically reserved for child starters: in the same way that an adult can learn a foreign language to near-native level, but will almost always retain a slight accent and make occasional grammar errors.

Thanks again for all the interesting replies :)

[sbhoa]

Although it is also possible that the progress of a late starter might be partly determined by natural ability.
Could a 'gifted' adult who began learning late because of whatever circumstances achieve as well as if they had had the opportunity to begin as a child?

Does that make sense to anyone?

[maggiemay]

QUOTE

to refute (or support) the widely held view that adults don't progress as fast or as far as children.

No particular statistics, as far as I can remember, but you might like to look up the following website:

www.musicalfossils.com where you might find a few articles of interest.

I 've never subscribed either to the view that adults necessarily progress more slowly than children. In some cases they do, but I always start out by expecting them to progress "normally " whatever that is! There are advantages and disadvantages at any age I guess. Good motivation and enthusiasm can go quite a long way.

Maggie

[janexxx]

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 14 2005, 12:09 PM)

My own belief (not based on statistics either hard or soft) is that a dedicated adult should be able to progress to upper-intermediate or advanced amateur level, but that the higher levels are basically reserved for child starters

Oh I hope not, or that I will be the "exception to prove the rule" :D :rolleyes:

What do you mean by the higher grades? 7 and 8 ?or are you thinking of Diplomas? I any case my plan is to continue onwards and upwards forever.

My view is that there are kids with ability and adults with ability. Kids with enthusiasm and adults with enthusiasm. Kids that practice a lot, and adults etc etc...... BUT as adult learners the enthusiasm and motivation will be there because otherwise why are we doing it...not because a parent or teacher is encouraging us, but because we WANT to do it despite the hard work.

And there is also the fact about less flexible limbs, digits etc...it drives me nuts, (when I want to do something and the old body says no :( ). It does seem to take longer to get through this barrier.

I just wish I had more time to practice :)

Jane

[sarah-flute]

QUOTE (sbhoa @ May 14 2005, 12:19 PM)

Although it is also possible that the progress of a late starter might be partly determined by natural ability. Could a 'gifted' adult who began learning late because of whatever circumstances achieve as well as if they had had the opportunity to begin as a child? Does that make sense to anyone?

Yes, it makes sense. I think there are pros and cons: as has been said, adults are doing it because they want to... the children who have real talent, real dedication, AND real enthusiasm in spades are the exceptions. Mostly even the really musical kids who enjoy it a lot will not practice for hours a day. A friend and I who were both relatively late though not adult starters at our now best instruments (both of us started vaguely in early to mid teens but didn't have lessons till late teens) bemoan the fact that we'd be so much better if we'd started at an early age, but we've both also talked about the possibility that we would have gone off it if we had started too young, and that faster progress in later years is from dedication that most younger children aren't always so capable of.

I think it depends partly on the instrument - certainly for violin or similar, early exposure to the posture etc needed is highly beneficial because it's just not very natural - and I'm sure there are similar things for other instruments. I do think it also depends greatly on the musical background: someone of any age who's learning a second instrument or has been exposed to a great deal of music or whose family sing together will have an advantage over others.

QUOTE

in the same way that an adult can learn a foreign language to near-native level, but will almost always retain a slight accent and make occasional grammar errors.

It is possible for adults to learn languages perfectly, given the right kind of teaching and a high level of dedication, and it's also possible (though by no means easy) to entirely lose one's foreign accent. It has more to do with teaching than age. & accents have also to do with which pair of languages - ie whether the two accents are compatible... which sometimes works one way but not the other: I'm reliably informed (by Russians and Croats who know) that well taught Brits have very little or no accent once they're really fluent in those languages, but I've never met one of either nationality who speaks accentless English.

I suspect similar holds true for musical instruments to an extent: the right instrument and the right teacher can enable even a late starter to reach remarkably high levels, a bad teacher or an instrument that doesn't suit won't go so well even for a child who starts at a very early age. It seems unlikely that an adult learner will reach concert-soloist level, just because of the hours of practice and years of learning it takes to get to that sort of level for most, but I don't think it's necessary to start one's instrument at 4 to stand a chance of that, (and I think someone who has the sheer talent and dedication to get that far probably will, even if rather late, whenever they start) and I think a talented adult starter who's willing to work has every possibility of getting to at least grade 8 if they want to, and I think a large majority of people who don't even consider themselves that musical could probably manage to reach grade 5 if they really wanted to and so would work hard; the main disadvantage, it seems to me, is that most adults don't have the time to practice that they would like.

[celloguy]

Jane and sarah-flute: Sorry, don't misunderstand me, I certainly didn't mean to imply that Grade 8 is in any way beyond adults' reach, though it may be beyond my particular reach :)