European Pianist,asian Pianist, Differences??? Options

[George Burrell]

QUOTE (piano_chik_em @ May 28 2005, 09:23 AM)

Sorry but are you just implying that all asians who play piano practice for long hours and are good? Thats just as bad as stereotyping a blonde. Asian people want to learn how to play piano good, a lot of european's start an instrument then can't be bothered doing. I must say being more Kiwi than Chinese I think about it all the time. Asian's aren't stopping European's from learning piano and being good at it, it's up to the individual. Like I said, at my school I'm considered a good musician but i'm not the best and neither is any other asian. My friend who is a kiwi is.

When working through implications of statistics, it is hard to escape suggestions of stereotyping. For example in New Zealand, less than 15 per cent of the population is Maori - yet half the gaol population is Maori. All sorts of misleading stereotyping resulted from prejudiced interpretations of these statistics.

When you say "Asian people want to learn how to play piano good" while "a lot of european's start an instrument then can't be bothered doing" - then this too is surely a possible over-generalisation.

Yet it is undeniable that, for reasons I simply cannot understand, the piano performance scene among the young here now is dominated by members of an Asian populace of little more than 10 per cent of the population. It is still not clear to me whether Chinese students have a special and strong affinity to music from the heart of Europe; e.g. Austria, Germany, etc, and if so why. It may be that they work much harder than their Western peers - yet in principle I would have thought that children of a certain age would be likely to get bored at about the same time.

There may be many answers.

[piano_chik_em]

I might be just over-generalising European;s starting an instrument and then can't be bothered doing it. But i believe it's tru more that half the people I talk to "used to play and instrument"

[George Burrell]

QUOTE (piano_chik_em @ May 31 2005, 10:38 AM)

I might be just over-generalising European;s starting an instrument and then can't be bothered doing it. But i believe it's tru more that half the people I talk to "used to play and instrument"

I've been looking at the site which contains our registered music teachers:

http://www.irmt.org.nz/Search.asp

There would be a low proportion of teachers from Asia at this time. Child musicians however have been a big proportion for over a decade now. Can that be explained?

You say a European child starts a new instrument and then can't be bothered doing it; i.e. the child usually can't be bothered practising and the parents decide not to waste their money.

I would have thought it would be at least as like that this would happen to an Asian child? There are countless alternatives to playing a musical instrument these days.

[cathui]

cultural difference.....
yeh i think there is a huge difference in terms of how pushy parents are...
2 things - 1) pushing a child to start learning an instrument; 2) pushing a child to keep practising and continue learning an instrument

in HongKong everything is so competitive. lots of parents are actually 'forced' (by the culture) to force their children to learn an instrument.
so lots of lucky children got to learn piano without having to ask for it.

i started learning the piano at 9 - i didn't ask for it. it's just because my elder brother was playing so well, so my mum taught i better start learning too.
i didn't like it at the very beginning but i was progressing well coz i was forced to practise at least 1 hour everyday.
i did expressed to my mum that i don't really like playing the piano when i reach around grade 5 (probably because things are getting harder and harder :rolleyes: ) but she didn't let me stop learning because 'you have been prograssing so well, why u want to stop?'
and then i continue........
it was really around grade 6 or 7, i found out that i really like music & playing the piano. all of a suddent, don't know why. i even chose to do HKCEE (=gcse) music (bad bad result tho :P) and when i came over to study in UKi chose to continue by doing alevel music and grade 8 piano.
now i'm in uni, and teaching piano in UK as a part time job.....

the reason why i bring up my own story here is, my main 'key of success' in music, really was a cultural thing: everyone learns the piano so my mum let me start it; my mum is a typical chinese woman so she was pushy. the huge difference in culture is, children in the western countries are more 'respected' by their parents, they have more 'right' to make decision about their live. western parents really concern about whether their children are happy or not - if u're not happy abotu learning the piano, i will not force you then.
this sort of makes children grown up in the western culture have a happier childhood then those children in asia. in a way this more healthy for the development of a child; but in other way......if my mum (and lots of asian parent) didn't FORCE me to practise and FORCE me to keep learning even i complained about i don't like it and want to give up, or if my mum was so nice that she listened to what i said an allowed me to give up learning the piano - i really wouldn't have found out that i really have a passion about music, and i wouldn't see my full potential in playing the piano....
in UK, i have got friends and students who are just talented but they give up just becaues they want to give up and parents let them doing so....

i read the early posts..someone mentioned Yundi Li.
i did some research on him for my AL music exam, and i'm sure that somewhere he said when he was a kid he used to practise 6 hours everyday. there was one time that he wanted to give up and refuse to practise (i think he said he was watching tv instead?) - he got beaten up by his father for that....and he never dare to think about giving up piano again....
in western countries, i don't think there are many parents who would want to beat up their own children just because they want to give up learning an instrument....

from a previous post someone mentioned something like, western musician are more likely to continue playing music profesionally or to teach but not many chinese/asian musicians do so (even tho they got up to a very high standard in an early age)?
well my interpretation is, in the western countries, most brilliant musicians who can reach a really high standard DO reach a high standard because they truly like music since they start learning it (those who don't like learning are allowed to give up and never got to a higher standard, which they might have the potential to do so). but in the asia, lots of brillliant musicians do reach a high standart because they have to (- forced to practise). (e.g. you are not allowed to give up until u pass ur grade 8). therefore, reaching a target means they have done what they are TOLD to do, so they are free to do whatever they WANT to do next, i.e. give up; therefore theres is less chance for them to consider to choose music as their future career...

sorry about this looooooooog post.... :unsure:

[George Burrell]

from a previous post someone mentioned something like, western musician are more likely to continue playing music profesionally or to teach but not many chinese/asian musicians do so (even tho they got up to a very high standard in an early age)?

well my interpretation is, in the western countries, most brilliant musicians who can reach a really high standard DO reach a high standard because they truly like music since they start learning it (those who don't like learning are allowed to give up and never got to a higher standard, which they might have the potential to do so). but in the asia, lots of brillliant musicians do reach a high standart because they have to (- forced to practise). (e.g. you are not allowed to give up until u pass ur grade 8). therefore, reaching a target means they have done what they are TOLD to do, so they are free to do whatever they WANT to do next, i.e. give up; therefore theres is less chance for them to consider to choose music as their future career...

sorry about this looooooooog post.... :unsure:

I would like to thank Cathui for the most informative post. No apology is needed for message length when so much useful information has been transmitted.

It does raise the difficult question - what should a parent do when a child wants to stop learning an instrument at Grade 5 - when a year or two down the track, the value of the learning may be more fully appreciated?

Children do have human rights. There needs to be a middle way. Don't "stop paying because Johnny won't practise". But not looking for unrealistically work rates where the motivation is not in place.

It is of concern to read that a "cram school" mentality should exist in a field which should be pure satisfaction and pleasure - available to all.

Since my earlier posting, I have been told that the number of Asian piano teachers is actually increasing. I should have said earlier that most Asian students pay fees to attend our schools and go back to own country before having opportunity to teach. I do believe all the same that the ratio is not what you would expect, and Cathui certainly proposes some reasons. Thanks Cathui.

[AnotherPianist]

It does raise the difficult question - what should a parent do when a child wants to stop learning an instrument at Grade 5 - when a year or two down the track, the value of the learning may be more fully appreciated?

Children do have human rights.  There needs to be a middle way.  Don't "stop paying because Johnny won't practise".  But not looking for unrealistically work rates where the motivation is not in place.

I always find this an interesting question: I'm not a parent but if I were I really would be baffled about what to do. All children at some point will usually say they want to give up something even if they do really actually enjoy it just because of the short-term benefit that they want to do something else now; when maybe they would enjoy what they are doing more now at a later date. I think that parents can be too pushy; but on the other hand I do think that parents get a bit of a hard time at the moment because any encouragement they give, or refusing to accept children giving up on a whim is considered pushy.

The problem, I think, is the different attitudes to music and other subjects, take maths for instance: no one cares if the children are enjoying or liking maths in any culture, they have to do it and there are some people who decide to study maths at university having hated it originally in school (and indeed I've heard of adults that have gone on to do Open University degrees later on having hated it in school). So would having a similar attitude to music and maths education be an infringment of human rights? I don't really think so; and I don't particularly agree that it would put so many people off music, as a lot of people suggest; even if it did, it would probably have the net result of finishing with more people enjoying music as many of those who gave up pre-grade 5 would probably have similar realisations to cathui having continued and more people would have had the opportunity to experience it in the first place.

[DGA]

I wonder, Chinese parents push and force their children to practise, do the children enjoy it when they grow up?

I think that without European and American teachers and conservatories, we wouldn't have any good Chinese pianists. The Chinese pianists might have superior technique - countless hours of practising everyday - but they need to study about interpretation and feeling, which is usually much better on the European side (because that's where most of the composers come from!).

[George Burrell]

[The problem, I think, is the different attitudes to music and other subjects, take maths for instance: no one cares if the children are enjoying or liking maths in any culture, they have to do it and there are some people who decide to study maths at university having hated it originally in school .  So would having a similar attitude to music and maths education be an infringment of human rights?  I don't really think so; and I don't particularly agree that it would put so many people off music, as a lot of people suggest; even if it did, it would probably have the net result of finishing with more people enjoying music as many of those who gave up pre-grade 5 would probably have similar realisations to cathui having continued and more people would have had the opportunity to experience it in the first place.

In our country, we have compulsory education, and literacy and numeracy are regarded as the foundations of everything else including science, social studies, technology and the arts. If the teaching of music in schools could somehow be delivered to all, then it could take its rightful place and we would save a lot of money!

The reality is that music is one subject where one-to-one or small group teaching is hugely beneficial. I think that a child starting an instrument at age 5 and spending the same time on the instrument as he/she does at mathematics might reach about Grade 3 or 4 at age 10. That to me is satisfactory progress.

I believe Cathui was describing parents who are in more of a hurry than this! One example was given of a child practising 6 hours per day, which would be more hours per day than in a school classroom.

All the same I do like your analogy Another Pianist. If learning a musical instrument is deemed important, then allocating a similar time per day as to a school subject could be reaonably argued.

[AnotherPianist]

The reality is that music is one subject where one-to-one or small group teaching is hugely beneficial.

Whilst I would not say that this is false, I'd say that in this respect musicicans are somewhat spoilt! Yes it's true a musician will progress better/faster if they have one-to-one tuition but then so would a mathematician, I probably could have done A-level maths at the beginning of secondary school, not the end, had I been taught at my own pace, but the fact is that it's not practical to do this for people in all subjects; but for some reason music is the only subject in which this is deemed practical and it is deemed impossible to teach to any reasonable standard in larger groups.

If we'd always had one-to-one maths tuition we'd all say that it was impossible to teach that in groups too as everyone goes at a different pace and we'd be a nation of far better mathematicians and find what we call today a good standard in maths unacceptable.

The other thing of course is that to be a good mathematician one doesn't have to do hours of extra study that no one else does: this is simply because no one else does it. If the brightest mathamaticians in our schools were also doing 6 hours a day out of school maths practice then everyone else wanting to be a mathematician would have to do the same.

I do agree with your sentiments and children being pushed through grades by their parents when they're younger isn't necessarily good for their piano playing future anyway.

[crazy_purple_piano_freak]

I wonder, Chinese parents push and force their children to practise, do the children enjoy it when they grow up?

I think that without European and American teachers and conservatories, we wouldn't have any good Chinese pianists. The Chinese pianists might have superior technique - countless hours of practising everyday - but they need to study about interpretation and feeling, which is usually much better on the European side (because that's where most of the composers come from!).

im Chinese myself and started piano of my own freewill but i find that living in England, there is an awful lot of competition between parents of a chinese community over whose child is the best musician/practises the most/is the best....
Its really overpowering and stressful. luckily my parents dont do that and have never pressurized me to practise or take grades if i dont want to. if i said i wanted to quit, they;d be fine with that but i dont want to quit because i enjoy music and i developed this enjoyment on my own. A few of my friends have parents who have pressurized them into doing music and i find that some of them dont enjoy it as much as they used to. At first its fun but now, for them its just a a race of who can get to grade 8 quickest and get the best marks for it. I think this is really unfair because otherwise the child may have enjoyed the music.
Another thing:if chinese pianists are supposedly good because they are forced into practising and playing, surely this cant be right because when forced you are not in the right state of mind, dont play well and have no motivation? :blink:

[DGA]

The other thing of course is that to be a good mathematician one doesn't have to do hours of extra study that no one else does: this is simply because no one else does it. If the brightest mathamaticians in our schools were also doing 6 hours a day out of school maths practice then everyone else wanting to be a mathematician would have to do the same.

Who says that no mathematician does hours of study a day? The participants of an international physics or mathematics Olympics (at least here, in Indonesia), spend at least 8 hours a day discussing problems and their solutions and developing or reinventing formulas. On holidays they do 12.

In my school, they're close to that: I got extra math practice as I was in the school's math competition team. One of my friends, who has made it to province level, spends extra hours a day privately with my math teacher.

Right, teaching maths can be more beneficial with private classes, but math's pure theory and music's practical. Studying math together has other benefits too: you can discuss the whole thing together, since math's only writing and thinking, but it's impossible to discuss playing piano together and getting instant benefits from that, because even if you do discuss practical stuff you still have to practise and try it yourself at home, alone.

[pianist_1210]

[quote=cathui,Jun 3 2005, 12:51 AM]
cultural difference.....
yeh i think there is a huge difference in terms of how pushy parents are...
2 things - 1) pushing a child to start learning an instrument; 2) pushing a child to keep practising and continue learning an instrument

in HongKong everything is so competitive. lots of parents are actually 'forced' (by the culture) to force their children to learn an instrument.
so lots of lucky children got to learn piano without having to ask for it.

[quote]

Lol...I begged my parents for so long for learning the piano and they begged me for so long to stop learning and playing it......lol but I'm also from HK.....funny isn't it?? <_<

[Mrs Beethoven]

I long for the day when people aren't defined by their race.

[frumpybabes]

Just a thought... I have experience in all areas of this post. Both being raised in the UK and having parents that wanted the best and for me to be the best out of the community they were raised in.

I used to not want to practise cos I was forced but now music is my whole life and most of my kids life but I am not sure cos you one culture you are going to be instant success. I think it is all to do with the amount of hard work you put into it.

In HK all parents want the kids to learn music and it is like a competition. Last year I took on some chinese kids that were born in UK and then taken back to Shanghi for 3-5 years and returned recently to UK. They told me that everyone in their school had violin and piano in their daily school curriculum. Can you just imagine that over here? So they learn from very young age.... wonder where they store all the violins all day and how many pianos they need to a school?

[AnotherPianist]

Who says that no mathematician does hours of study a day? The participants of an international physics or mathematics Olympics (at least here, in Indonesia), spend at least 8 hours a day discussing problems and their solutions and developing or reinventing formulas. On holidays they do 12.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that absolutely no mathematician does hours a day; some do. What I meant to say was that to get into the UK's leading universities to do maths one doesn't have to study for several hours a day; for music one does. As an example two people I know who went to Cambridge to study maths and who both got firsts, weren't doing the sort of hours in maths each evening throughout their childhood that musicians do. One of them was simply doing the maths homework that was set (although admittedly at to A-level time they would have been doing a little more to cover step work). The other did more than that because she did part of an OU degree in maths before starting university (she was incidentally also in the UK maths olympiad team). She was truly a genius though (and I don't use that word lightly) she was autistic and when she went to Cambridge came top of her year every year, she'll now just be in the second year of her PhD. Neither of them had to do the same amount of work to do what they did as a musician would have to do to get into the RAM (although the girl probably chose to).

Right, teaching maths can be more beneficial with private classes, but math's pure theory and music's practical. Studying math together has other benefits too: you can discuss the whole thing together, since math's only writing and thinking, but it's impossible to discuss playing piano together and getting instant benefits from that, because even if you do discuss practical stuff you still have to practise and try it yourself at home, alone.

Studying music together also has benifits, and yes, you do have to go and practise separately as well, but so do you in maths: that's what homework is. If you wanted to simulate classwork in this situation a lot of clavinovas with headphones would do the trick, would be expensive, but cheaper than a private teacher for every single child that could possibly use the room!