Liszt B Minor Sonata Options

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

ive realised that the Chopin Nocturne in D flat Op.27 uses a very similar bass figuration in the Liszt Consolation No.3? in D flat...strange huh

Chopin and Liszt admired each other hugely. Each stated that the other could play their music better than they could. Hope that makes sense.

In this case, I wonder who pinched from whom :ph34r:

Steve :D

thats an interesting idea actually

[s8535049]

i think probably liszt pinched from chopin, like sl123451 said, chopin thought of liszt's music as a little "vulgar" (i think that was the word he chose, but i'm not 100% sure) for his tastes. he probably said this before they met and became friends though... ;)

that said he did appreciate liszt's input and assistance, particularly with the op.25 set of etudes. apparantly liszt was a great fan of chopin's etudes - the last piece he ever played was the nouvelle etude no.2. so they were alike in many ways, despite differing styles

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

hmmm the etudes are good fun

[SteveHopwood]

hmmm the etudes are good fun

Unless you are playing them, in which case they are torture :P

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

well yes you're right, the B minor Etude from Op.25...MY GOOD GOD! how does anyone cope with double octaves like that at such a speed!

the Winter Wind and the Black Keys are wonderful! but i dont like the look of the right hand fingerwork needed for them...that scares me! same applies for the left hand in the Revolutionary and the Op.25 in C# minor

[SteveHopwood]

well yes you're right, the B minor Etude from Op.25...MY GOOD GOD! how does anyone cope with double octaves like that at such a speed!

the Winter Wind and the Black Keys are wonderful! but i dont like the look of the right hand fingerwork needed for them...that scares me! same applies for the left hand in the Revolutionary and the Op.25 in C# minor

Have you ever wondered why the return of the section A in the B minor is cut short? I always did until I learned the piece.

Not only did Chopin understand perfectly how to push technical development to its absolute limits, he also recognised the point at which players will become incapable of continuing. He aborts the reprise just at the point when the peformer is likely to seize up. The problem is not the first section octaves - octaves are just basic technique once you know how - but the extra notes you have to play with the (usually) second and\or third fingers in each hand. These cause intolerable pressure on the muscles. The middle section then sounds relaxing but in reality, the constant extension of the hands leaves little opportunity for rest and muscle strength regeneration.

I never mastered the Black Keys :( - players who did tell me that they have to keep on playing it or the mastery soon disappears again. Winter Wind is tough and performers playing, say, the whole of op 25 as a set, need to keep back some energy for the last of the group. Start that one with tired hands and the soloist will be unable to manage more than about half-way through (guess how I know :ph34r:).

One of the great things about these studies is the way Chopin demanded of a pianist's hands those things they were likely to be asked to play. The C# minor is a great example of this. The rh whizzes around playing thirds; instead of doubling up with the lh, which would be plain silly, C wrote a broken chord figure which helps the lh develop one of the skills it needs.

Are you starting to play these yet? If so, take a tip and don't start at the beginning. The C maj at the start of the op 12 set is one of the hardest and failure here is discouraging (guess how I know that, too :ph34r:). The first two of the op 25 set make a more gentle 'in' and will do you incalculable good as well.

Steve :D

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

HAHAHAHAHA, i wont really go near the Etudes (yet) although my Teacher tried to get me to play the Aeolian Harp (no.1 in A flat from Op.25) dabbled around with No.7 in C#minor from Op.25 and No.2 in F minor from Op.25 but thats about it :-\ The 1st of the Op.25 REALLY hurt my hands and i did it VERY VERY VERY slowly :-s

i'd rather learn Debussy's Feux D'artifice or les tierces alternetes

[s8535049]

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins! likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.

steve, am i right in assuming (as i've read somewhere) it's not necessary to play every single grace note in the op25 no1, so long as the overall effect is satisfactory? the vast vast majority should of course sound, but given the speed it seems impossible to play all of them. and thanks for the recommendation - i will look at the first 2 from op 25 first, along with the black keys, not in any serious way of course - i imagine it'll be some time before i'm performing these :blink:

[AnotherPianist]

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins! 

I seem to recall Freddy Kempf saying of this piece that it was one of those pieces that no matter how much he practised it didn't sit well under the fingers like other pieces do and he always felt like he was going to 'fall-off' the keys and it wasn't a safe thing to perform. Of course following that statement he then went on to play it very well!

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins! 

I seem to recall Freddy Kempf saying of this piece that it was one of those pieces that no matter how much he practised it didn't sit well under the fingers like other pieces do and he always felt like he was going to 'fall-off' the keys and it wasn't a safe thing to perform. Of course following that statement he then went on to play it very well!

Kempf said that?!?! but hes a genius!!!

i do believe he said that the black keys was one of the easiest etudes to learn and/or play (cant remember which) :blink:

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins!  likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.

steve, am i right in assuming (as i've read somewhere) it's not necessary to play every single grace note in the op25 no1, so long as the overall effect is satisfactory? the vast vast majority should of course sound, but given the speed it seems impossible to play all of them. and thanks for the recommendation - i will look at the first 2 from op 25 first, along with the black keys, not in any serious way of course - i imagine it'll be some time before i'm performing these :blink:

every grace note in Op.25 No.1? sorry but its an etude made up of semiquaver sextuplets throughout except a few bars with 4 against 6 and the last few bars

regarding the Tristesse Etude (Op.10 No.3) polyrhythmically trained hands are useful. its amazing how something so beautiful is horribly difficult

[Philharmonia]

regarding the Tristesse Etude (Op.10 No.3) polyrhythmically trained hands are useful. its amazing how something so beautiful is horribly difficult

Am I reading you correctly? "Polyrhythmically"? Why would you need that?

Do you mean playing different rhythms on the same beat in each hand or completely independent beats?

Can't see how it fits in with that Study
:huh:

[s8535049]

the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins!  likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.

steve, am i right in assuming (as i've read somewhere) it's not necessary to play every single grace note in the op25 no1, so long as the overall effect is satisfactory? the vast vast majority should of course sound, but given the speed it seems impossible to play all of them. and thanks for the recommendation - i will look at the first 2 from op 25 first, along with the black keys, not in any serious way of course - i imagine it'll be some time before i'm performing these :blink:

every grace note in Op.25 No.1? sorry but its an etude made up of semiquaver sextuplets throughout except a few bars with 4 against 6 and the last few bars

regarding the Tristesse Etude (Op.10 No.3) polyrhythmically trained hands are useful. its amazing how something so beautiful is horribly difficult

maybe you have a different edition of op.25, no 1? in mine chopin certainly marked the melody line in normal size and marked the semiquaver sextuplets as much smaller on the page, so they resemble grace notes - this is what i was referring to.

and AP pointed out yet another :( challenge about the black keys etude. it's 'safer' on some pianos and more perilious on others, so trying it on a new piano can be quite intimidating. sometimes you do feel that, although you can manage the fingering, you're balancing your fingers on the narrower black keys, and are always in danger of falling off and ruining it.
even when you can play it rapidly this danger never really goes away, and you really need remarkable precision. if Kempf thought it was hard... :blink:

does anybody with smaller hands find the fingerwork in op10.no4 easier than i do?
it always seems uncomfortably cramped, but i don't really see how else to play it. apparantly chopin had quite small hands so presumably he didn't suffer this problem

why polyrythmically? i've always regarded this as more of a study in touch, but then it's too early in the morning for me - have probably misunderstood you completely :P

[sarah-flute]

I seem to recall Freddy Kempf saying of this piece that it was one of those pieces that no matter how much he practised it didn't sit well under the fingers like other pieces do and he always felt like he was going to 'fall-off' the keys and it wasn't a safe thing to perform. Of course following that statement he then went on to play it very well!

Kempf said that?!?! but hes a genius!!!:

Yes, and even, or maybe especially, geniuses (genii?!) know that to play a piece perfectly - or even extremely well - is a difficult thing to do.

[GoneChopinBachSoon]

[quote=s8535049,Jul 30 2005, 10:23 AM]
[quote=GoneChopinBachSoon,Jul 30 2005, 01:18 AM][quote=s8535049,Jul 29 2005, 06:52 PM]the 'black keys' etude is actully OK to play through once you get patterns in the RH sorted, but it's after you've got the notes right that the challenge begins!  likewise with op.10 no.3, the most popular of the set, quite easy to play but so immensely difficult to master - the subtleties and degrees of touch in the different parts is exhausting to maintain until the end. but then i suppose that's why they're still being played today.


ohhhh i see i see i understand.