Rhythmically Challenged Adult -help Please Options

[NormanB]

Hi

I've just joined this forum in the hope of getting some help and advice on learning how to read rhythms.

I am desperate to play the sax as an adult learner and have been doing so for the last few years. I have no trouble recognising the pitch of written music and then finding the appropriate fingering. I do not seem to have made any progress in being able to count and read/play the written rhythms with any accuracy or consistency and this is now a significant barrier to progress.

That said I can do so on crotchets and quavers which are on the beat but as soon as there are dotted notes or syncopated rhythms then I'm lost. I have tried the 1+2+3+ etc approach and just can't do it. I liken myself to a child who is learning to read and struggles over the syllables rather than recgnising the word immediately.

I understand that there is a system of teaching/learning rhythms based on phonetics and this seems to me a very interesting method. I would be very grateful for any help advice at all but particularly if anyone can point me in the direction of a list of the words/sounds that equate to particular written rhythms.

Thanks

[janexxx]

Just when you need Cyrilla she is in Hungary!!

Norman, the Kodaly method helps with rhythm and this might be what you have heard of. There is a system of sounds (ti-ri ti-ri for 4 quavers etc) that will help you I'm sure. I'm no expert but there are others on this forum who are.

Neil.clarinet has not gone on the jolly to Hungary so might enlighten you in due course.

[RockPeter]

Hi

I've just joined this forum in the hope of getting some help and advice on learning how to read rhythms.

I am desperate to play the sax as an adult learner and have been doing so for the last few years.  I have no trouble recognising the pitch of written music and then finding the appropriate fingering. I do not seem to have made any progress in being able to count and read/play the written rhythms with any accuracy or consistency and this is now a significant barrier to progress.

That said I can do so on crotchets and quavers which are on the beat but as soon as there are dotted notes or syncopated rhythms then I'm lost.  I have tried the 1+2+3+ etc approach and just can't do it. I liken myself to a child who is learning to read and struggles over the syllables rather than recgnising the word immediately.

I understand that there is a system of teaching/learning rhythms based on phonetics and this seems to me a very interesting method.  I would be very grateful for any help advice at all but particularly if anyone can point me in the direction of a list of the words/sounds that equate to particular written rhythms.

Thanks

You need to buy at least one good book on how to read rythm.
The one I used (when I started to learn classical guitar and now helps to play piano) is called Music Reading for Guitar, The complete method by David Oakes and published by Hal Leonard. However, you might try and find one for the saxophone. It gives you all the information on how to read the rythm.

Remember when counting the beats that there are several methods depending on the time signature and the notes being played.

example:
1+2+3+4 is good for 4/4 example with crochet on each beat.

For sixteenth_eighth notes count this way: 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + 4 e + a. You should be counting 4 beats per measure assuming 4/4.

To play the rythm properly its important to know how to break down each measure so that you are playing the note when you are supposed to.
Another aspect of playing properly is to know when to accent the note.
Example: in 4/4 assuming there are 4 quarter notes- beat 1 and 3 would be accented.
in a 3/4 assuming 3 quarter notes- only beat 1 would be accented. However if there are indications in the music then we must take those accents into consideration.


This is just a little bit of what you should know. But like I said , a good book on the subject would be beneficial to your learning on this subject since there is a lot. Good luck.

Peter

[AnotherPianist]

I notice there is no mention of a teacher in your post: do you have a teacher or are you self-teaching?

[maggiemay]

There is a useful page of word -rhythms in Oxford (Piano time - sorry!) book 3,
where Pauline Hall provides a verse to help with subdivisions of the beat.

Two quavers = Big green
4 Semiquavers = caterpillar
Quaver + 2 semis = crawls up a
2 semis + quaver =lettuce leaf

This is not the whole thing, but gives you an idea. I've used this and found it very useful with pupils who don't immediately click with rhythm. An adult pupil who has played for years grabbed hold of this idea a few weeks ago and keeps telling me what a discovery it was- I had mentioned it very briefly in passing, thinking that it would be considered too juvenile - use whatever works ! You may not need these as they stand, but they may help with syncopated rhythms in the early stages.

Dotted rhythms - I do usually find the 1+2+3+ etc system works ok, but you need to use it right from the start of the phrase or section imho, not just when the tricky rhythm occurs. Otherwise eg you start off in crotchets at what seems a comfortable speed, only to find that when the rhythm gets a bit more complex you have to slow down to fit everything in. Hey presto - pulse has disappeared.

Now - off the beat, syncopations, that sort of thing.
You need to sort out the rhythm slowly, on its own first.
These rhythms often rely on tied-notes to give the "off the beat " feel. Learn them without the ties first. Several days. It usually works. Keep it slow. You can very easily join up the tied notes later (make sure you aren't breathing between them though!), but doing it this way helps you hear each note and give it its proper value.

At any later stage (eg playing a bit quicker) it can be useful to take out the ties again for a day or so.

I don't know if any of this helps. I'm not a wind teacher, but the difficulties of reading rhythms are pretty common to most instruments in a broad sense. Let us know how you get on!

[andante_in_c]

I use a similar system based around drinks:

crotchet tea
pair of quavers coffee
four semiquavers coca-cola
quaver two semiquavers blackcurrant
two semiquavers quaver lemonade

For dotted notes: a dotted crotchet quaver crotchet or a dotted quaver semiquaver quaver is Rock-a-bye or Amsterdam.

[chocolatedog]

I use drinks too - and when the rhythm gets more syncopated with tied notes I'm in the process of collecting little phrases to help with each rhythm e.g. 4 quavers with the last tied to a crotchet = 'Winnie the Pooh'. I've also got 'Skippy the Kangaroo', and 'Tie Me Kangaroo Down' for other syncopated rhythms that pupils come across in grade 1 jazzy pieces. Daft, but they seem to work.

[andante_in_c]

Other ones I use include pear, grapefruit, pineapple, watermelon for crotchet, pair of quavers, triplet quavers, semiquavers. Hippopotamus is brilliant for getting groups of five even.

[sarah-flute]

Hippopotamus is brilliant for getting groups of five even.

heh, yes, it's very helpful!

[NormanB]

Thanks to you all for your quick responses.

This is exactly the help I am looking for. These "nonsense" words are much more meaningful to me than the 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + 4 e + a. method that RockPeter has suggested. That is the way I have seen described in tutor books and I just can't do that even at slow tempos.

Maggie May - Do the Pauline Hall books or any otheres have a comprehensive list of the musical equivalent words/phrases ? eg what do you do for quaver rests? The fact that the rhythm information is in a piano book is immaterial to me.

[maggiemay]

Maggie May - Do the Pauline Hall books or any otheres have a comprehensive list of the musical equivalent words/phrases ? eg what do you do for quaver rests? The fact that the rhythm information is in a piano book is immaterial to me

I think the most useful page is the one I quoted - it deals with straight subdivision of a crotchet beat into quavers, semiquavers and mixed groups of these. In other words, it doesn't have very much more than I listed above.

She doesn't deal with rests in the same context.
One bit of advice would be to simply replace the note that is missing with " shhhh" while still keeping the rhythm intact. Or replace the appropriate syllable with a whispered one - so four quavers with a rest on the third one might be:
cof-fee cof-fee . You can reinforce this by saying "cof-fee cof-fee" and as you say it, clapping on each syllable except the one that has the rest. if that makes sense!

I don't know if that is clear the way I've printed it. If a pupil has difficulty with these, I tend to get them to practise the rhythm as if the rest is a normal note to start with - then when that is secure we miss out the note but make sure that the bit of silence that comes in its place is exactly the same length.

What do others do about rests that take up a fraction of a beat? Maybe someone will have better ideas than me!

[andante_in_c]

Another strategy I use, particularly helpful with ties and awkward rests, is to take the shortest note in a section (eg a semiquaver) and to play the whole passage as semiquavers. So for each quaver I would play two semiquavers, each dotted quaver three, each crotchet four etc.

So, for example, the first bar of 'Speed Bonny Boat' would be like this:

GGGAGGCCCCCC, with all notes the same length.

This helps to get the proportions right. When this is secure, the repeated notes are joined back together to make a dotted quaver, semiquaver, quaver, crotchet, semiquaver, semiquaver:

G..AG.C...CC

[snuglivixen]

Another strategy I use, particularly helpful with ties and awkward rests, is to take the shortest note in a section (eg a semiquaver) and to play the whole passage as semiquavers. So for each quaver I would play two semiquavers, each dotted quaver three, each crotchet four etc.

So, for example, the first bar of 'Speed Bonny Boat' would be like this:

GGGAGGCCCCCC, with all notes the same length.

This helps to get the proportions right. When this is secure, the repeated notes are joined back together to make a dotted quaver, semiquaver, quaver, crotchet, semiquaver, semiquaver:

G..AG.C...CC

Hey that's a great idea - I'm gonna try that myself. :D

[sarah-flute]

Yes, that really helps - also sometimes I find doing it (sort of) the other way round - ie if there are semis and qyavers and stuff and you're working out the rhythm but can't yet play all the notes, play each beat, then each half a beat, adding in the fiddlier bits each time... I'm not sure if i am making sense! lol... need to go to bed v v soon! For example I was playing some mozart yesterday and there was a section with semis and demisemis in it, first I played every quaver beat (ie every other semiquaver) so i could play it at a reasonable speed, then I added in the semiquavers, then when that was confident, the demisemiquavers were quite easy to slot in. I hope that makes some kind of sense...

[jd323]

for three-over-twos

nice cup-of tea

:D