Do you have a child on the autism spectrum who is taking music lessons?

Have you found that your child has Absolute or Perfect Pitch? Does (s)he have an extraordinary memory for music? Are you amazed at his/her interest in music?

I'm a musician and researcher in psychology at a London University. I am studying musical talent in children with ASD and would be very interested to have a chat over PM or e-mail with you.

Please do not hesitate to contact me.

-J


(I read the forum rules, and I believe that this type of posting is permitted. If it is not, please inform me, and I will remove it immediately with my apologies and no further intrusions.)

Welcome to the forums Jyssyka

I did my honours dissertation on this very thing. It's a lot to remember though. There are one or two people on here who have talked about ASD and music from people they know so hopefully there will be some helpful comments.

I'll PM you later.

At one school that I visit and take recorder groups there is one boy who is spectacularly inept (started in Sept). I mentioned this to the HT last week and she said,"Oh he is autistic". This particular autistic boy obviously has no talent for music - or it certainly doesn't come out in a group setting. Are you interested in both sides of the coin?

Hi J,
My toddler son has autism (diagnosed last year) and is most peculiar when it comes to music. He has only just turned 3 this year and likes all kinds of music (from Agnus Dei to Bach to Bizet's Carmen to modern pop, etc) and musical instruments but particularly the piano, guitar, violin and drum kit. He is always after the church's guitar and drum kit on Sundays! The church conductor is quite afraid of him.

I left him in the church creche one day when I was in a meeting and his carer when queried on my return, laughed and said he was good as gold. I was astonished as he NEVER is good as gold (in the sense of being easy to keep an eye on as he wanders off into dangers constantly and many times burnt his finger or fringe! ) - I know him! Well, she said - he just played on the piano for 40 minutes!

He was so bizarre that he HAD to have a violin bow with him in his cot bed for more than a year to sleep. At infancy (1 year old), my daughter heard him sing upward scales but I would not believe it till shortly after his first birthday she caught him doing it (again, in his cot) and I crept up and heard him, too.

But then he has NO communication / NO undertsanding whatsoever, so, tragically, there is NO way he can take music lessons even though he has been assessed by music professionals and been found to be exceptionally musical. But then please don't get any wrong ideas as some autistic kids have no musical inclination whatsoever! It all depends on whether THAT autistic kid has music as one of his fixations/obsessions/gifts.

However, I'm still in the middle of an uphill battle with the council to fund his music therapy which is very different to music lessons.

He also has an extraordinary memory. He has never been taught numbers or how to recognise them as such but mysteriously he remembers, recognises and KNOWS what numbers to press for his favourite classical music. I don't know myself and I have to refer to the CD cover to look but he needs no such reference! He presses a certain number for Air on G string or another number for Beethoven's 5th Symphony which is his absolute favourite, etc. It's spooky. What could be running through his mind?

He likes all kinds of music be it slow, fast, moderate, loud, soft, low or high pitch! He also likes the second and third songs of The Four Last Songs by Strauss. He hates nursery rhymes unless it's sung by a low male voice, very rarely! He loves Japanese folk music but is bored with Chinese Canto-pop. Likes some Italian stuff, too.

Finally, he used to be unable to tolerate "other-than-himself" voice singing in CDs, DVDs, films, etc, in that it sets him off on one of his panic / terror attacks on himself but then one day he suddenly changed! We never found out how or why. He has always liked singing his own babbles but now he doesn't mind if others join in, too.

If you want to know more, please feel free to e-mail me.

Tess

PS. I've no time to plough thr and empty my INBOX so e-mail is best!

I take it you are not interested in hearing from teachers who have struggled to teach such children but found that they have absolutely no sense of music at all. There are a lot of such children around although they don't make headlines or attract interest. That is the reality of autism. As an academic myself I often find it helpful to remind myself that, in certain contexts, the word "academic" can mean "of absolutely no importance".

I taught a pupil with Aspergers syndrome for 2 years until he went off to uni. He had an IQ of 172, apparently, and was an extremely rewarding student to teach. He was very musical, listened intently to instructions and his sight-reading was second to none - in fact I'd never encountered such a good sight-reader. He had some very odd personality quirks but once you got to know him he was a delight in every way, with a good sense of humour and a razor-sharp intellect.

I do think there's an enormous confusion between Aspergers syndrome and autism. Aspergers syndrome is an 'autistic spectrum' disorder, but a lot of people with Aspergers can lead pretty normal lives and some are undiagnosed throughout life, getting married, having children, careers and so on. Some people think it's nothing more than 'extreme maleness', in that it's merely a sort of 'over-dominance of the left-hand side of the brain'.

Autism is a very different kettle of fish and the two should not be confused; the existence of the occasional 'high-functioning' autistic person may be the cause of some of this confusion, in that these people can achieve amazing things, say with maths or with drawing, and people with Aspergers can have very high IQ's. But the 2 syndromes are really as different as chalk and cheese when it comes to the ability to lead anything approaching a normal life.

Violinia

I have Asperger's Disorder (someone told me never to call it a syndrome as there are people who believe anything which is a Syndrome (including Down's Syndrome) can be cured, and that is why people with Down's Syndrome do not get assistance from place like Centrelink). I was diagnosed at the age of 15 at which time I had been playing the saxophone for 6 years. I struggled with t but I loved it, the only reason I quit playing in the concert band was I had a disagreement with the conductor, and I began to struggle with the 7:30am starts and then not getting home until after 4 (on a good day) plus we were about to move and it would mean earlier starts and later getting home. I always enjoyed the music and I still attend the music concerts that the school put on, I love them. If a person on the spectrum has an interest in music, maybe you can find out what there special interest is and if possible find a piece of music about that, maybe they will be more encouraged to learn it. If their special interest is music maybe you could let them play more complicated pieces (they are more likely to want to practice) or play more instruments.

Thank-you so much for the warm welcome and the fantastic replies!

For those that asked about the "other side of the coin" of talent, as it were, the "spectacularly inept" children, the answer is YES! I am interested in those children as well. It wouldn't do to study the particularly talented children without comparing them to children who are, erm, somewhat less talented...so that I can pick apart what makes them different. (But how do you post on a board: "Hey, does your child have absolutely no talent whatsoever?"? )

So please, do tell me about your less-talented youngsters!

As for the difference between Autism, Asperger's, and the other 4 members of the ASD family....spot on Violinia: different kettle of fish. But in research terms, it is very difficult to get a pure sample. One can pretty fairly say "Autism/Asperger's/PDD-NOS please" but some clinicians don't differentiate between Higher-functioning autism and Asperger's, and so by one measure an individual comes out autistic, by another AS, and another clinician calls them PDD-NOS. So, it gets muddled.

And kayladavies, I apologize, then, for calling AS a syndrome! Syndrome usually only means that it is a disorder that is characterized by a specific constellation of signs and symptoms. But culturally, perhaps, it has taken on this other meaning, and I shall defer to you. I agree with you about encouraging people to carry on playing, and I do hope you carry on.

-J

Hi Jss,
According to my son's doctors (all 6 on the panel) Aspergers Syndrome is within the top end of the Autistic Spectrum Disorder and is often called High Functioning Autism. Sorry if I confuse anyone!

All I am trying to explain is that some experts think that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between Aspergers Syndrome and HFA! Who am I, a layman, to disagree?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that people don't call it a syndrome. It's just that if you want assistance most of the time you have to call it a disorder. There are certainly a lot of people who call it a syndrome and it is quite all right to do that as long as when filling out forms you put it as a disorder.

Oh. Cool. There is only so much I can learn from a book....the rest I have to learn from real people, which is why I am here! Thanks! *thumbs up!*

Hi,

My son was diagnosed with AS at age 10 ( he is now 13 ). His intellect was also asessed at that time and he was placed within the 95th percentile of children his own age. The two things coupled together gave him an added problem in that his difficulties were often masked by his intelligence. Although, his school is aware of his difficulties, they often don't see them and don't help. They forget easily, and expect high standards of my son. When he doesn't achieve, the blame is laid at his feet. He is a gentle character, likeable , but not popular, a little eccentric and funny, definately not streetwise but always a pleasure to teach. ( one to one).
Nobody we know, would guess that our son has AS. He fits the classic description 'the hidden disability', we even forget ourselves sometimes. The difference between 'Autism and AS is that austistic children live in their own world and it is often difficult for others to enter that world. AS children live in our world, but live in it their own way, not often understanding anothers point of view.

As for music. He showed some ability, I guess, when he was a toddler. He was able to beat a toy drum and dance in good time. However his 'thing' at that time was reading and he was a fluent reader by the time he started school. He had some keyboard lessons, aged 5, did very well but became bored and so we left the lessons and just allowed him to play. We aquired a piano and he began lessons age 7. We have never pushed him, he doesn't practice what he is supposed too, but he likes to take the exam once a year. He has gone through grades 1-5 all with a distinction and he is taking his grade 5 musicianship in Feb, with a view to taking his grade 6 piano in the summer. He has also been playing cello for three years now, with inconsistent teaching and is about grade 4 level. Our son loves to play in orchestras, he accompanies the wind band at school and he accompanies a local drama group in their singing. He stretches himself musically when he wants to play something in particular, he has just about mastered a grade 8 piece from a rockschool music book. As long as the teacher believes in him and is flexible with content to keep his interest, our son will always shine. If he meets negativity, he will withdraw back and will not perform.

I hope this has been some use to you. All the cases will be so different. our son is probably the most subtle of all. It is hard to say whether AS is a contributer to his musical abilities as we have grandparents who have shone in the same way. The question could be asked as to whether those particular relatives had AS too!!!

Hi,
I have something AMAZING to report!

On a walk together, my girl and I have JUST bumped into a little girl who was diagnosed as having severe autism. She definitely has/had severe autism as it's VERY obvious to all and sundry in the neighbourhood. BUT she can now communicate a little like smiling and telling ME (more or less, a stranger to her with her mum's permission, of course!) where she has been and what she has been doing that day! It was AMAZING! I was so happy and so thrilled for this 7-yr old that I asked her mum HOW it happened?! Apparently, she has had intensive one-to-one therapy and according to her dad, it cost them an arm and a leg! Some people are even willing to get into serious debt for such purposes bec they believe in it.

She also plays the piano beautifully! She figured this out herself - had no piano lessons but did have music therapy.

What I'm trying to say is - we must be very careful of mental labelling? Now that I come to think of it, I remember what a private specialist (who is a great believer in music therapy as a language for some autistic kids and relaxation for others), once said to me - No matter WHERE (emphasis is his, not mine) on the ASD the child is, there can be so much improvement IF you start early as you have done with ... because there's no telling what one-to-one intensive therapy can do... because it is tailored to the particular child in question. (I started his training very early as my kid was behaving in a bizarre manner very early - he can't stand being touched by his sister, etc, and has a habit of smashing his head repetitively when upset or in non-routine circumstances without needing/wanting and rejecting any consolation whatsoever) and he was also the youngest ever to be diagnosed by his hospital.

So, EVEN a child with SEVERE autism should not be written off. Years and years of one-to-one intensive therapy, bags of patience and endless dedication can yield a miracle. But then of course, it does boil down to a question of money / resources. Sad. Such is life!

I am learning EVERY day!

I have just looked through our Ring Binder (a very thick one) full of information on ASD and have found some information which may help you. All of this information came from Autism Queensland.

DIFFICULTIES: Low Tone presents as: Slouching, tires easily.
Tactile-defensive presents as: not linking hugging, touching; disliking certain textures.
Proprioceptive presents as: Rocking on chair; Writing very hard
Vestibular presents as: Poor balance when sitting, unease at visually following teach around room
Visual presents as: poor ability to focus on anything, fix on something, follow an object, copy when requested
Auditory-follow presents as: Slow following of given task; need for repeat of instructions

SUGGESTED STRATEGIES: Jumping on trampoline, Jumping on trampoline whilst throwing ball back to someone on ground; Walking around a tramp on knees or sideways; Simple ball games; Learning to tolerate different substances; Rolling Games; Swining on a swing; Singing and clapping patterns.

Implications in education due to sensory processing: gaining and maintaining attention can be difficult, accurately copying information from board can cause problems, poor posture at desk, maintaining appropriate looking and pencil-holding behaviour can be difficult, the child may seek stimulation, anxiety and non-compliance in crowded, busy places, distress caused by excessive stimulation of any of their sensory systems, verbal and physical aggression, overly defensive behaviour or general reluctance to comply, learning difficulties in the areas of reading, writing and maths.

RECOMMENDATIONS
Auditory: Be aware of lous sound and if possible reduce it; give exxtra cues
Visual: Avoid presenting busy visually complex pictures or information; check they are attending to required feature even if it may seem very obvious; be aware of distracting visual features; provide visual cues
Tactile: Light, ticklish touch usually most irritating -use more firm and constant pressure; give advance notice of intention to touch; allow child to stand at back of line; firm pressure can help when distressed -perhaps heavy blanket, cushions or beanbag
Vestibular system: use slow, gentle rhythmical movement to calm child; sometimes adding weights can help; vary activities to recover easily exhausted muscles; may feel threatened when moving as a large group -perhaps walk ahead with a message for another teacher or at the back to check that everyone has gone
Motivation: recognise child with ASD does not receive same internal rewards for carrying out behaviours less likely to be motivated by external reward systems; cannot rely on child to be self-directed; often does have the motor capacity to use an item or carry out a behaviour bresented to him but is unwilling to try something new or different.

Here is a website of someone that has ASD who often does presentations on it. She did a presentation in a town near where I live and I attended and it was wonderful and so inspiring. http://mugsy.org/wendy/index2.htm

That was great, kayladavies.

Thank-you for the continued awesome posts! I am soaking it up like a sponge!

-J

Hi J.
This is Kemal, from TURKEY. My son Bugra is 11 years old ASD who is the boy You are exactly looking for. He has been diagnosed as an autistic when he was 3 years old. Then he didn't know anything about our world, any word even his name. He is like a computer with an empty and not formated harddisk! And we started to get lessons to teach and introduce him our world, our living rules and e.t.c. Of course Communication always has been main subject of lessons.
Bugra is very intelligent and high functional. When he was 4 years old he has learned to read words without knowing the meanings of them. He can speech. He has still some difficulties in communication. He goes normal school with ordinary childeren.
Two years ego we took him some piano lessons and we were amezed. He has learned symbols of notes and correct places of notes on piano in a short time. A few monts later we noticed that he can say the name of a piano note by only hearing it. After that we found an Absolute Pitch Test on internet, presented by UCSF Genetic Researh Institude. AP Score of Bugra is top of top. Little part of e-mail sended to us by UCSF is below;

"Dear Bugra Cankir,
Congratulations your scores on our tone identification test meet the stringent criteria we have established for absolute (perfect) pitch ability. Specifically, your score on the pure tone test of 36 out of 36 exceeds our cutoff of 24.5 points and your score on the piano tone test score of 35 out of 36 exceeds our cutoff of 27.8. Good job!!"

Than after Bugra has started intensive (10 hours/week) piano lessons from a professional piano teacher. Now more than 1 year passed we think he is ready for the exam as grade 1 level.

Wow! Ten hours a week of piano tuition seems a crazy thing to me at first glance. However, knowing autistic kids as I do, they can NEVER be forced to do things against their will. So my guess is, he must be pretty obsessed with and totally enjoys his piano.

Talking about strategies, kayladavies, my son's paeditrician refused to say whether he has moderate autism/mild Asperger's syndrome? Be that as it may, when your child was VERY young as mine is only 3, HOW did you help him cope with a necessary change in routine? Mine simply cannot!

I forgot to wear a hat when I closed the door behind me and realised too late at the garden gate that it was absolutely FREEZING COLD this morning for me to walk back 0.5 hr from his nursery. The freezing cold is all very well for him as he travels there in a taxi. BUT I CANNOT turn back to open the door to fetch my hat! THIS is non-routine and from previous experience, I know that if I did turn back, he would cry/howl endlessly and inflict serious injury on himself in a blind panic. I HAD to freeze.

Sorry, this is not a music question, kay, but I need to know how you coped? I'm presently on a waiting list till April or May to get on a course where I'll be taught how to manage, living with an autistic child. It's not that bad you know as he is nonetheless a happy kid (absent any change in routine!) although VN is most unhappy about his behaviour last night! He used to keep ONLY me/hubby up all night. But last night, for the first time, his voice was so shrill and he kept waking up several times and singing for so long on top of his voice, that he woke and kept HER up, too, and she's grumpy today. *sigh*

I wasn't diagnosed until the age of 15, so I had to learn to cope. Changes in routine -I find it best if I have a little bit of notice and then I can prepare myself. Medication can do wonders -I am currently of Lexapro (it is an anti-depressant, but it does wonders for the ASD and my parents can see a huge difference when I haven't had my medication. I used to be on Luvox but it would make me physically sick and I wouldn't take it and therefore it wasn't doing me any good. Would you believe that in all my information I have nothing that has anything to do with strategies for changes in routines but I will keep looking.

Thanks a lot, kay, it's just that his doctors are reluctant to use such medication on a toddler.

True, but they could be willing to try some sort of medication on him that may help. Still looking for routine strategies though.

5 Strategies from a book (for a schedule change but can be changed): 1. Identify a reasonable endpoint or goal (ie 10 deep breaths.
2. Develop a "hierarchy" of steps toward the endpoint or goal
3. Identify strategies to cope with any discomfort that accompanies the changes
4. Identify the reinforcers for the change
5. Decide what others will know about the process.
6. Set up the schedule and begin.

I also have mild Asperger's Syndrome. My mother spotted it a couple of years ago as she works with children with a wide range of learning difficulties, including Aspergers. I have also been to see a doctor, and many people in my family have varying degrees of symptoms. Like many others, my problem is not too obvious due to my intelligence. When I began to get very frustrated and unhappy in school the teachers tried to put it down to teenage depression, but the truth was I just didn't like doing things that I considered were unnecessary or a waste of time.

It certainly helped to explain other problems once the problem had been identified. For instance, I rarely socialise with my peers and find most forms of socialisation tedious and boring. I also feel overwhelmed when part of a large group and try to take part in conversation. I rarely speak to anyone of my own age, preferring to talk to sensible adults.

People with AS often have narrow but intense interests. This has helped a lot with music, as it had been my only focus ever since I started at 11. I think I would have been very difficult to manage if I didn't have this outlet for my mental energies. It also means I have more confidence on stage as I'm not so concerned with what others think, or with 'fitting in'.

I do not have perfect pitch but I find it easy to memorise music and pick up tunes by ear. No one in my family is at all musical, so they are surprised at this ability.

This is very helpful for an adult or a teenager so I'm going to cut and paste this into a document for storing so I can coach him on these when he reaches a point when he can talk/communicate with me. I don't understand no. 4, though.

I have two sons who both have ASD's.

My elder son, now aged 11, has always been interested in music. When he was 3 he used to like to listen to organ music. He now enjoys playing the piano.

We are not a musical family but hopefully have encouraged his interest. He practices much more than his peers at school and works very hard to complete, what I think, are fairly hard pieces. He is very interested in keyboard type instruments, especially harmoniums. He chooses to listen to a fairly unusual selection of music, classical, Old-time Dance and Wurlitzer LP's to give some examples.

His younger brother has also started to play. He is especially interested in theory and composition.

Did they have music therapy first? Just wondering...

I'm asking bec I'm much more keen on music therapy first and then lessons proper much much later as I'd like to use music first and foremost, as a communication tool.

My eldest son had a little music therapy when he was 3. He didn't like it at all, although it was mainly guitar and percussion orientated. At that age, he did love to listen to Songs of Praise and attend our local church service to hear the organ. He was obviously relaxed listening to this type of music. He started to play when he was 7. He now has almost a physical need to play. He practices for about an hour or more each day.

My youngest son never had any type of therapy. He just expressed an interest when he heard his brother play.

Hi,

I'm not sure if this counts, but there is a guy in my music class at college who has autism/aspergers (not sure which) and he most definately has perfect pitch!

He is amazing at harmony, and chord regognition and just appears to know the answers to everything listening and harmony-wise!!

However, we can sometimes get a little frustrated as he often shouts out the answers to a question someone else had been asked to answer (I really hope that doesn't sound selfish on our part) and he often gets frustrated if he cannot answer or is not asked to etc....

(I appologise if that makes me sound like a horrible person, or any of my classmates, we are honestly not, but it's a bit like we need some time too...??)

He really is a talented musician, and I wish I had some of his listenning skills and abilities!!!

(I also know another boy with aspergers who plays sax, and although easily frustrated by the instrument is not a bad player....im not sure whether he has pitch or not though....)

I would love to enter music therapy as a career and so am deeply interested this topic!!
xoxox

Chev,
That's why he shouts out all the time, don't you see? People who suffers from autism is by definition, largely unaware of other people's needs or feelings nor suspicious of anything fishy. They are also not capable of lying as unlike "normal" folks, they are unconcerned about the need to impress! Asperger is sometimes called by my kid's doctor as a special and very mild form of autism and so it's a bit different as they are more aware...

Harmonium,
My son loves Songs of Praise, too. My son on the other hand loves music therapy, absolutely! He has just re-started music therapy and at all those sessions, he played the piano and the drum and jumped for joy like some crazy person - MT makes him SO happy!

Tess

With hindsight, I really wish that my son had started lessons a bit earlier. He gets so much pleasure out of both playing and listening to music. I think I was a bit reserved about him learning too young, but with the right teacher it might have been a good idea.

My son's piano teacher did a quick "test" for pitch. One son (Asperger) does appear to have near perfect pitch, although less confident with sharps and flats, with which he has had less exposure. He appeared to remember notes from music he had learnt in his piano lessons. My other son (also ASD) was pretty close.

Have a 9 yr old son with Asperger Syndrome. A couple of years back discovered he has perfect pitch.
He plays guitar chords when he feels like it (Unfortunately a lot less often than he used to). Has also picked out 2 part harmonies by ear on the piano but really does not want to be taught basics of piano playing as a lesson. I hoped that simple basics might have unlocked a potential to be a good piano player but I don't know.
Likes jolly fast moving music. Dislikes loud electeic guitar. Often sings to himself but rarely sings with others.

You might also be interested in people who were assessed as (possibly) having Aspergers etc. Some friends of mine (happy to give your details if you are interested) have a slightly unusual (culturally and personally) daughter. There was a push from preschool etc to get her "diagnosed" aged about 4-5. In the end it was decided she didn't have a "problem" of that kind. She's doing very well on two instruments. One of the most interesing things is the functions of the AS myths/truths in the process of diagnosis. You have a really interesting project.

I've got AS and I'm not particularly musical!
I get through the grades with relative ease and little effort, but it's not a talent. I'm the same as any ordinarily intelligent child when it comes to musicality; nothing special, but with the potential to reach a reasonably competent level.
Music lessons and Aspergers can get on very well, but you have to get the balance right
Just one tip- don't underestimate Aspies! We can look like we're completely "zoned out" and sometimes we really are, but we can absorb a surprising amount of information looking in from the outside. Other times, our poor working memories refuse to comply and we can look quite stupid. Visual types of learning are much better suited to us. My teacher once spent half an hour trying to explain something to me (dotted crotchet beats) and nothing would 'sink in'. Finally, she jotted down some notes on paper and I got it immediately. Aspies also have very high concentration levels, except when it comes to uninteresting things- then it can be even worse than it is for an NT child.

Hi there,
I work in a residential college for young adults who are on the autistic spectrum. I would be happy to talk to you about my experiences if you are interested. One young man I know, who has asperger syndrome comes to me to do keyboard and singing. He talks on a monotone and says he does not understand how to change the pitch of his voice. However he was singing 'who will buy' from Oliver to me and I found the notes on the keyboard (I dodn't know this song before). We then put it on the stereo and I realised that he was singing in perfect pitch with the song on the CD. This also happened with other songs he did. He can't always sing in tune, but he seems to remember things at the correct pitch. So does that mean he has perfect pitch?
Lorna