I went to the RAH on Monday to see An Evening with Michael Ball (and guests). An excellent case for the defence of light music and musical theatre. The reason I went was the conductor: I went to school with him.

The sobering part of the evening (other than not getting home until 4 am - we live in Lancashire) was watching Callum. He was a very good conductor. It made me think about how good a pianist he was as a teenager and shortly after (He played a Liszt piece at the Queen Elizabeth Hall once and I've got recordings that aren't that good). Then it made me think about the rest of the orchestra. Here's what it made me think:

In all probability even the least talented member of the orchestra is the graduate of a music college or conservatoire. Each one of them was probably a better musician as a teenager going into the college or conservatoire than I will ever be and they are a lot better now.

Then I thought "so what?" Good luck to them!

I'm very happy for them to be able to make a living that way. Each to his or her own - I'm an amateur and happy that way!

That is a great thought to come away with Rob

Another sobering thought is that a lot of the musicians you heard are not so much earning as scraping a living from their music. Today's young musicians have such a tough time making a go of it, and have to work really hard teaching as well as performing to make ends meet. The days of walking into an orchestral place (unless you play double bass or something) are over. I think you're much better off as a doctor doing music for fun.

Personally, I can't go to a concert these days without imagining the vast amount of parental money and time that has gone into forming all those musicians! Having spent the last 8 years ferrying my son back and forth to various lessons and concert venues, I feel for all parents doing likewise to foster their child's talents. It's worth it though, in the end, for the sublime sounds an orchestra is capable of.

A wholehearted agreement here from someone who's been through the music conservatoire mill and had to develop a 'portfolio career', ie. one with many strands: some musical, some not so musical, in order to scratch a living.

Regarding the double-bass. Standards have improved dramatically in recent years and there is just as much competition for a place in the bass section of a good orchestra these days, as there is for any other instrument. 'Extra' work might be more readily available for bassists, but you might have to travel the length and breadth of the UK all week (not easy with a double bass) and still not earn enough to put a roof over your head.

The one thing professional music training does give you - the ability to be resourceful and to seek opportunities, alternative ones if necessary. Even while AT college, you soon learn that work isn't going to be plentiful.

Another sobering thought. Only 5% of conservatoire graduates will ever have a full-time playing career.

So do I! I think that was rather my point. Also, if I tried to make a career out of classical music I would probably starve, not even scrape a living!


I ferry my kids to all sorts of things, music being one, chess another. My parents did the same for me, particularly rowing (they ferried me all over Europe and bought boats and oars etc.). Neither I nor my parents expect or expected our children to make a living directly from these particular talents - it's just that you want to see them do "well". If one's child, or anyones child, is fortunate enough to make a career out of such a talent then rejoice for them, as I do. However, I don't mourn their parents money: I think it's terribly sad when a parent only puts out money for their childrens talent in expectation of some sort of career or other direct financial return. There is so little sense of joy in such children.

The returns are not always so direct: I have no doubt that my music, modest though it was, combined with my rowing achievements, helped me stand out from the crowd in applying to medical school. On the one hand, I never earned a penny from rowing. On the other, without rowing I might have carried on down the road I was on to delinquency. I might not have stayed on to do A levels. Without rowing I might never have been in a position to apply to medical school, let alone got in. In that sense rowing has reaped huge financial rewards.


On the one hand, yes that is sobering. On the other hand, in many ways I'm surprised it's as high as 5% who are full time players.

I think you mentioned Callum in another post didn't you Rob? Glad to hear you enjoyed the evening.

When I go to concerts, I think to myself that I would love to be up where they are and be as good as them. But I know my limits! I play what I play for my own enjoyment (and hopefully others when they hear me play/sing).

I doubt I'll ever be professional, but like you say, it doesn't matter. I'm happy and that's all I ask for in my music

[[/quote]
I ferry my kids to all sorts of things, music being one, chess another. My parents did the same for me, particularly rowing (they ferried me all over Europe and bought boats and oars etc.). Neither I nor my parents expect or expected our children to make a living directly from these particular talents - it's just that you want to see them do "well". If one's child, or anyones child, is fortunate enough to make a career out of such a talent then rejoice for them, as I do. However, I don't mourn their parents money: I think it's terribly sad when a parent only puts out money for their childrens talent in expectation of some sort of career or other direct financial return. There is so little sense of joy in such children. [end quote]


Sorry if I gave the impression that I was mourning the parents' money - that wasn't at all what I meant! Of course parents ferry children to all kinds of activities, and if one had only a lucrative career in mind, one would have to be pretty stupid to jump on the classical musical bandwagon. A pop band, maybe! What I wrote was intended to be a kind of celebration of what parents do for their children, which can result in something as wonderful as a symphony orchestra.

Just for the record, my own son has never wanted to make a career in music - his first love is Maths, which he's hoping to study at university - and that certainly hasn't made any difference to my attitude to his music. It's a great hobby, which I hope he will continue to derive pleasure from all his life, and has caused him to develop all kinds of skills which I hope will be useful in whatever career he chooses.

The fault is all mine - you didn't give this impression, I was merely bemoaning the parents who do take the "If you're not going to do it for a career what's the point" line. I rather think we are agreeing, not arguing here!

. . . and yes, an orchestra is a wonderful thing!

The other side of this is that if I hadn't learnt (a little) as a child, I doubt if I would have returned to music so enthusiastically in retirement. I didn't play very well as a teenager - probably don't now - I will never be able to perform for the public - but I cannot tell you just how much pleasure I get now. It is just wonderful - so a hearty thanks to my long dead parents who forked out the money, did the ferrying, listened to the practice, encouraged, pushed and generally helped me to do my best then. NOW - 40 years later I am getting the benefit.

Thanks, Robodoc, for clearing up my misunderstanding. I'm glad we are in agreement.

Bachpensioner, I agree wholeheartedly with you. There is so much going on in one's teens that it's sometimes difficult to keep up music lessons, and I've often regretted stopping piano when I did. I am very grateful, though, to my parents for paying for piano and singing lessons for me, and generally encouraging me in anything I wanted to try, without any pressure to achieve. It's meant that music has always been something I've enjoyed doing, and even though I'm not much of a pianist, I find it great fun. That's why I've been only too happy to support my own children in their various activities.

All credit to you for coming back to practical music in retirement. It's never too late to improve and there is so much joy to be found in making music.

I agree. It's not all to do with careers surely!
Life is more than that, I hope.

What we do as parents is to lead and guide and very importantly offer opportunities and experiences.
[wow, this sounds so high-flown ] those experiences are there to help our children to move towards making their own decisions and choices later on.. hopefully what they will get out of it is a reasonable way to pay their way and lots and lots of enjoyment before it's too late!
there's too many people who don't enjoy what they do in Life and that is sad.


apologies if this seems a very sombre, deeply philosophical post...

What our parents gave us is an interest in activities that were healthy for mind and body!

My grandmother (one of 14) was taught the piano by her older sister and played exceedingly well all her life. She in turn made sure all her kids (9) had music lessons. None took it further passed school age. My own mother (violinist) made sure my siblings & i had music lessons, but only on the piano. I in turn have married a musican and all the children have learnt an instrument (or 2). We did not expect them to make a career of Music, although much to our surprise one has.

The pleasure that they have got out of the accomplishment of learning these instruments, in addition the great friendships they have formed with the various Youth orchestras they have perform with, has been money well spent. They have travelled to a wide variety of place & countries in Europe & made further friends there. They seldom watched TV because they were either practising for an exam or a forthcoming concert. Once they were old enough they were then going off to concerts at the Barbican or such with their like-minded friends. Or in the case of our son, busking with his Band. The Confidence they gained from musical activities permeates through everything else they do. Whilst they are none of them blindingly talented, they know if they dont practice the result will be sub-standard. They know if they dont prepare/revise/etc in other areas the results will be below par. They also know that music is fun.

I do not for one moment discount the cost of music tuition, but the cost e.g of Computer games is just as expensive. Its about parental choice in how you want your children to learn & develop & what you want to spend your money on. In addition I for one was never ferried around by my parents having had to walk some distance to my piano teacher after school. My own children either have lessons at school (walking distance), get on their bikes, the bus or walk to their current lessons. Even summer courses that are some distance away they have to get the bus or train. We turn up for the concert at the end.

My father ha never learnt an instrument but was an avid supporter and life long attendee of the Proms at the Albert Hall, taking us all when we lived at home. This event was fixed in the family calender every summer with sandwiches in tupperware boxes and my kid brother's supplies of the Beano, my father worrying if the car could make it, my parents arguing about which bridge to cross on the way there and back to Kent - fond memories. And yes I have in turn taken my kids to the Proms, BUT I let them choose what they want to see/hear! My dad felt as he was the 'Papa', he made the decision for all of us.

Ayshah, you are lucky to live in London, where the public transport is so good. I, too, as a child was able to use buses to get to my music centre and to my lessons, rather than bothering my parents. However, public transport in West Berkshire leaves a lot to be desired, and it would be impossible for my son to get to many venues except by car. For instance, each Monday evening he has to get to the outskirts of Reading, some 18 miles from his school, by 5pm. It is just not possible to do this on public transport in the time available, as the venue is miles from a station, and if he were to return by public transport when the session finishes at 9.20, he would be lucky to be home for midnight, which is not good at the beginning of a school week.

Also, once you are in county groups, concert venues are often 40 miles away in places difficult to access by public transport, e.g. Bracknell or Windsor. If parents did not get together to arrange car transport for their young musicians, they would never get there. So we take them up and leave them to rehearse, then have to return to attend the concert. It's certainly an incentive for us to pay for our children to learn to drive, though!

Even in London with its excellent transport facilites there are still parents who ferry their children age 17 & 18 years, ½ a mile down the road, with the claim that "if I didnt take him/her, they wont go!".

It is not a personl criticism. I do recognise that like most things in life there are times when you do what you have to do and thats use the car. I have been rung up in the middle of the night asking to be picked up from pretty much the outskitrs of London and wondered if they got there why cant they work out how to get back! My son at University once rang me at midnight to say he was in Bognor Regis and the train back had been cancelled. Did he really expect me to come an pick him up?!

Car pooling is a good idea and very eco friendly. I frequently take several children to an AB exam centre. If there are heavy instruments I do take the car, if not we get the bus. Those who are used to sitting in the back of 4x4 are often quite excited to travel by public tranport. What is the big deal about ringing the bell on the bus!

There are also bikes! My mum's violin teacher, of some considerable age, arrived with two violins strapped to a bike of equal age! Bikes can be taken on trains with instruments strapped on. Once I saw a French Horn strapped on the back of a bike going through Parliament square in central London! Bikes are much cheaper than driving lessons and/or buying a car.

However, as you say, sometimes you simply have to use the car so your child can access activites.
Anyway mustnt stray

Sadly, not all children have (or have had) that luxury. My grandmother was a pianist but relatively powerless in convinving my mother (her daughter) to let me have any hobbies or interests at all. My father did what he could for me - with limited funds and dwindling health - but to be frank, my mother didn't encourage me to do anything. She'd had no career aspirations herself and the only thing she expected of me was to get a regular job (shop, office etc.), ie. something that wouldn't need any of her input to achieve.

My time at music college was down to my own efforts and money that I saved while doing weekend and evening jobs. I received no parental funding for my studies whatsoever. I even had to buy my own violin when I went to music college!!

What I'm saying (particularly to younger members of this forum) is that if you want a dream to come true, never solely rely on others to make it happen. One needs to push themselves and assuming there is enough ability to go the whole way, keep pushing until you succeed and your dream comes true.

so right Amanda.
there are a lot of youngsters who seem to think success etc will fall into their laps, but you are so right - nothing comes that easily.
You have to go for your own dreams -