So have I - but then I was also asked if I played the piano with both hands

I hope you said "Yes. And with my feet too."

KJ - aaaaargh .
*must keep practising*. Maybe one day I can convince a few folks that a properly played recorder is a very different beast from the pink plastic Early Learning Centre model in the hands of a four-year-old.

*waits to get shot down in flames by a parent of highly talented grade-eight standard recorder-tooting toddler*

My youngest's £3 Winnie the Pooh bright yellow recorder is surprisingly in tune - I used it to play the Dr Who theme tune (don't ask! ) at a concert last X'mas. Before you all get too excited it is a low key orchestra made up of adults and kids of all standards. It's great though because it encourages kids to play together from a young age.

Sorry - off topic!

Well put!
Couldn't agree more


A

But do have the benefit of looking forward to practise and really, really enjoy it

Absolutely .
I scuttle away from work at lunchtimes, as fast as I can, in order to be able to have a half-hour, or if I was very quick, a whole hour of blissful practice time before school is out, in peace and quiet, and never mind the heap of festering laundry or the stack of bills. Admittedly sometimes I come onto the fora instead, but that's music too, isn't it? (Though sometimes rather dissonant...)

A further thought - if there is no difference between adult learners and child ones, how come we've got a forum section ?

People react negatively when told that an adult takes music lessons. How is that adult labelling themself as an adult learner - surely it's the person reacting who has done that?
Either way, it's an insignificant point, and getting rather boring. Apologies to the rest of you that I'm still banging on about this.
*goes to find some music to play this afternoon, I'm getting a concert hall to play in *

I'd just joined this thread to say much the same thing as David has said already. Before using the forums I had never heard the term "adult learner", although I suppose they wanted to have a younger student forum and then a seperate one for older students, and needed a name for it?

I just call everyone a student really - including myself

It was the Adult Learners section that first drew me to the Forums - this is where I first posted and where I spent most of my time in the first week or so after joining.

The system of development for an "Adult Learner" is very different from a "Child Learner". For a start, even though we can match them for progress, we are not as flexible or as nimbly fingered - even if the 'talent' is there, it takes a lot more effort and practice. Practice often has to fit around other commitments - in my case, late at night after all the 'chores'. The opportunities for playing to an audience are also limited - no school orchestras or concerts - and there's no doubt that these opportunities help to build up confidence.

For the record, on reading this thread, there is clearly a difference in opinion as to the use (or not) of the term "Adult Learner". We are not trying to make ourselves any different in terms of our learning but I'm glad that a separate section exists to provide support and guidance - I for one don't really have this locally.

It's fantastic that you are able to provide these opportunities for your students - which explains why you see them all as equals. It's not the same everywhere, as others have said - which is why the Forum concerts have proved so popular. I've yet to attend one myself - being a relative "newbie" - but they do sound great.

Most children will have access to some sort of youth music in their area, whether it is through school, through the county music service, or privately.

I know that many of the schools have music groups round here, and between GAMPA and the county music service, there is much more provision for children than adults.

David, you are doing rather well to get most of your adult students to take part in your concerts.
Before I took the plunge through forum led events I would have refused to take part in a student concert run by my teacher (and have done so in the past).

I've met the children of some of my adult students, and always ask the children to make sure that mummy practices this week


Can you give a few examples of this, David, perhaps from your local experiences?

In the Valhalla Music Festival, quite a few classes have an upper age limit, none have a lower age limit, and adults in the open classes stick out like sore thumbs. There are no other performance opportunities for an adult learning an instrument, especially in the early stages, unless in something their teacher has organised or the adult learner is of about diploma standard. From the top of my head I can't think of any other type of performance opportunity for adult learners.

The Adult Learners Forum did not exist when these forums were first set up. It was created after a very long-running and successful thread was started by a user called SilverPianist (where are you now?) about starting to play the piano in later life, and around the time of the first Adult Learners' concert which was organised by katyjay.

The early users of these forums found the need for a 'home' by themselves, and welcomed the new Adult Learners' forum when it was set up. It was in no way a label imposed on them/us from above.

I live in a city, so you might expect to see such facilities as dcmb suggests, readily available. I know of only one which could accommodate a recorder player like myself, and sadly, it isn't what I want to do anyway - the SRP locally quite simply isn't my cup of tea. I could go to Glasgow - I've been invited to play in a baroque orchestra there, but that's it. If I want to perform, I have to organise a concert and then drum up an audience; if I wait to be asked to play, I wait a long time.....and in any case feel kind of shy about touting for gigs - as I've said before, why would people come to listen to the likes of me? They'll come to hear kids because they are kids; but an adult learner doesn't have the same attraction factor that a young fresh face does, so will only get the audience if they are up there with the best; and if we've started learning as adults, we haven't really had as much time to get to be up there with the best, have we?

On the competition festival front - I entered that, in an open class, so apparently suitable for adults. Still got a less than warm reception for doing so, and the speeches on the Highlights Concert night clearly stated that the competition was an opportunity for young musicians to show off their talent.

Most of the music festivals around here also just have competitive open classes for adults. I can't cope with the competitive aspect so I don't enter those classes even though I would like to have practice at playing in front of an audience and feedback from a knowledgeable adjudicator.
There is one non-competitive class at one local festival for non-professional adults only, but when I entered last year they had allowed a kid to enter as he thought his playing was too good for all the other kiddy classes that he could have entered. He was allowed to play for twice as long as the maximimum permitted time and the adjudicator spent most of the time helping him improve his performance, so I didn't get much feedback on my playing. I was quite cross about it as there are loads of classes for kids to play in, but only one class I could enter.

I have, however, found that it is possible as a non-professional adult player to find (or create) quite a lot of solo performance opportunities, and not all of these opportunities require high level playing skills.

My teacher suggested i "air" my pieces in a "class" in a local festival. Having gone to this festival last year and heard
some of the grade 8+ teenagers playing....... well, full marks to everyone who gets up and plays there is all I can say.

When it comes to performance skills I'm a beginner, regardless of the level I play in my lesson.

To be honest, I'm not sure precisely what performance experience would be beneficial. I enjoyed playing
some simple duets with my teacher at his students' recital, and that was definitely helpful. BUT It's a bit of a leap
from that to playing a Debussy prelude in a class in a festival....

I actually think I'd be terrified to play at a festival as the only older adult. Having sat in the audience with pupils who were in the the same cless as older entrants, I've been aware of the 'attitude' towards the adults. I've overheard parents mumbling that it was unfair for them to be in the same class as their kids, as they clearly expected them to be in a different league, and I've overheard them be quietly derisive when this has not been the case. The parents are very obviously unaware of the guts that it takes for the adults to get up there at all. In short, the adults really don't get things easy at festivals unless it's specifically an adult class. Since there are obviously quite a few adults out there who would like the opportunity to do this sort of thing, perhaps festival organisers should take their needs more on board? I realise that not everyone likes the label 'adult learner' but perhaps more classes specifically for them would be welcomed. Even the term 'adult amateur' can imply a certain level of competency that might not be there, as adults can get so desperately nervous. Maybe a class along the lines of 'This class is geared towards adult learners, but other entrants may be included if numbers permit. All entries welcomes; under 20's will be considered on a first come, first served, basis if the number of adult entries is small.' This way, even if the majority of entrants are young, at least the adults will feel that they have a right to be there without anyone having negative thoughts about them.

in which case, why suggest them to others?

My local festival is entirely competitive. Now that I actually earn a few quid from doing music, I'm also not eligible to enter


Lucky you if your local county music service runs such schemes for adults. Not many do; ours doesn't. The various area and county ensembles are all for children.


There are a few choirs round here which take all comers, but not all instrumentalists want to join a choir. Some of my clarinet students look horrified when I suggest they sing! As for bands and orchestras, they tend to require a minimum standard, and the orchestras have a waiting list for the few woodwind seats available.

Yes, as an adult, one can also create one's own opportunities, but surely one has to be of a reasonable standard. Is Joe Public likely to wander in off the street for an evening of adult beginner violinists if he doesn't know any of them? Would an adult beginner violinist be brave enough to play in public?

*nods*

I am unlikely to label myself or anyone else an "adult learner" as if it's some kind of disease. It's just what I am! And it's nice to have a place to talk to people who are in the same boat. As I have said elsewhere, anyone can post in the students forum, but for say a 40-odd new beginner, posts about "what shall I do for my grade 7?", "help, A Level music!" and "I've got an audition" probably don't feel like the place where they belong. It's nice to be able to meet people who have the same problems with others' perception of them not being as good as they "should" be, or feeling an outsider in festivals... etc etc.

One really doesn't have to be a very high standard to find a captive audience, you just need to be able to play simple pieces well and enthusiastically.

There are actually quite a few groups of people who for reasons of age, diasability or ill health never get the chance to hear live music, and when I have played for such groups I have found them to be really appreciative (even when I make mistakes!) and interested in my playing.

Here are some examples:

I regularly play unaccompanied at the local centre for the deaf and blind. Generally I play simple tunes/songs that they can sing along with and they always join in enthusiastically. I am always able to slip in a couple of my own pieces as well. Last week I decided to challenge myself and do a bit of public sightreading (about Grade 4/5 standard), sometimes I try to play a short piece from memory, and very occasionally they get to hear a rendition of one of my diploma pieces. Nobody minds if I make mistakes, and it is gradually helping me to gain confidence in playing in public.

I have a friend who visits a nearby prison to play piano so the prisoners have an accompaniement for their singing.

When I have been to a local old folks home the residents have seemed to become much more alert after they have had a singing session, accompanied by live music.

I play the hymns in my church at family services, but at the beginning and end of the service I can play whatever I choose, so the congregation have heard me playing unaccompanied Bach, suitable bits from various viola concertos and various other pieces. It has helped me a lot to start getting over my nerves, although I did find it very difficult when someone videoed me playing from just a couple of feet away, without asking me first if I minded.

I have been asked about playing in a recital to raise money for charity.

Last weekend I got together with some musical friends and their families for a sort of musical party. Anyone who could play an instrument could perform a piece(s). A bit like a very informal mini concert. This sort of thing is very easy to arrange. The running order was decided at the beginning of the evening and no-one was pressurised into performing.

These just give an idea of some of the perfomance opportunities that I have found, but there are plenty of others. I have found that when people know that I will play for no financial remuneration, then more opportunities just seem to occur.

I also considered busking at one time but I would feel too vulnerable to do that.

[quote name='LooneyTunes' date='Sep 30 2007, 11:05 AM' post='601000']
It was the Adult Learners section that first drew me to the Forums

The discovery that there were adult learners out there gave me the courage to pick up the phone and arrange my first trombone lesson earlier this year. And what fun it is! I'm now working on Gr 3 and enjoying every minute, but I very much doubt if I would have got started if I hadn't been encouraged by other people's experiences and realised that age is no barrier to learning an new instrument.

I regularly play unaccompanied at the local centre for the deaf and blind.


Sounds like my perfect audience!!!!!!!! (Either they can't hear, or if they can, they won't know it's me...... oh yes!!!!!)

There is no need to be rude. They are mostly hearing impaired or visually impaired, so they can see and can hear, just not as well as we can. The ones that are visually impaired, rather than hearing impaired also often have very acute hearing.

Edit: Most of the visually or hearing impaired people are also accompanied by people who can hear and see as well as you or I can.

I might teach, but I'm an adult and I'm still learning, therefore I'm an adult learner. However as someone who is busy researching stuff for an FRSM I suppose that makes me a student too. Teacher, Parent, Student and Adult Learner different views on one person.

I think there's an awful lot of us here who fit into all of those categories, or most of them! In the case of these forums, though, it's not so much a case of 'labels for people' as a case of which forum sub-section to post your question in!

Yup!!

oh come on, where is your sense of humour? It was clearly a joke, with myself as the butt

Definitely an adult learner/beginner on violin. Haven't touched any musical instrument in thirty years.

For me, I think it's attitude maybe. I'm very awkward playing in front of even my teacher. I think this is because the expectations of an adult doing most things is they have some proficiency at something.

It's also hard because we know how something should sound and we know how we sound.

I suspect we're more motivated. We practice because we want to practice and not because someone has badgered us into it.

Stage fright?

Welcome to the forums webgekco - lots of understanding of expectations and stage fright. Just had my weekly lesson, and even though I know that Teacher is both sympathetic and encouraging, I got so mixed up with getting the fingering right that I stopped counting - and yes, you guessed it, this was a piece that I really had to count very, very carefully!

I have found these forums very useful - lots of useful tips (and a whole lot of wacky games) - enjoy.

Is a gekco a sort of lizard?

I can certainly identify with that - and the more knowledgable the audience, the worse the awkwardness - in my case to the extent that if I knew that an eminent musician had just rung my husband up to confer on tunings for a recording, I'd stop my recorder practice for fear of being overheard by him down the phone .
And still don't know how to get it to sound the way it should! Arrgh! (When it first started happening for me that I could make the noise I was wanting to, I was beside myself with delight....until I found I couldn't always repeat the experience )
Absolutely. My practice habits are completely different from those I had as a child - with one exception. I still hate scales .

Adults are apparently much more likely to suffer from excessive exam nerves, and I'm sure the same applies to stage fright and adult learners - though there are also plenty of stories of top musicians, who have been in the public eye from their teen years needing to be shoved on stage to perform.

One sort of funny aside. The school district rules for school clubs require an adult with topic expertise/experience who is a full-time employee. The full-time requirement means me in my high school. So I somehow became the adviser for the Strings Ensemble.

The first meeting one of the kids said to me, "So, will you be teaching and directing us? What are you planning on teaching us to play? Don't make it Pachelbel!"

I laughed. "Since I have been playing for three months, and you've been playing for eight years, I'm thinking the answer is no. I expect to be learning from you guys. Also, I'm learning Canon in D, guess who is going to be learning it with me?"

You should have seen the look on his face.

No, but we can hear it.
Adults have listened to more music than kids have, and more critically, often. I have also become much more focused on the noise I make as an adult than ever I did as a child - critical listening to oneself takes time to evolve; I've also observed this in my kids. It's a good thing for children that they are, very often, able to be so much less self-conscious about the quality of the sound they make - it means they'll give it a go anyway, and the tone and intonation come with time and practice in due course, but for adults the difference between expectation and actual output can be crippling.

Anacrusis
"It's also hard because we know how something should sound and we know how we sound.[/quote]And still don't know how to get it to sound the way it should! Arrgh! (When it first started happening for me that I could make the noise I was wanting to, I was beside myself with delight....until I found I couldn't always repeat the experience )"
I have exactly the same experience. Whenever I think "wow, is this really me" I find I am unable to continue.

'webgecko'
"I suspect we're more motivated. We practice because we want to practice and not because someone has badgered us into it."

By the time I was a teenager, I was motivated to practise but what has changed as an adult is that my practising is far more structured. Perhaps because I have more limited time, I tend to think about what I want to practise in any particular session before I start and I also have more patience to play one tiny part over and over again and until it is right.

'webgecko'
"Adults are apparently much more likely to suffer from excessive exam nerves, and I'm sure the same applies to stage fright and adult learners - though there are also plenty of stories of top musicians, who have been in the public eye from their teen years needing to be shoved on stage to perform."

I have always suffered from excessive exam nerves. What has changed as an adult is that on top of the nerves I know feel embarrassed about being so ridiculously nervous.

'dcmbarton'
" I don't immediately see why that should be any more applicable to adults than to younger learners."
Anacrusis
"No, but we can [i]hear it.
Adults have listened to more music than kids have, and more critically, often. I have also become much more focused on the noise I make as an adult than ever I did as a child - critical listening to oneself takes time to evolve; I've also observed this in my kids. It's a good thing for children that they are, very often, able to be so much less self-conscious about the quality of the sound they make - it means they'll give it a go anyway, and the tone and intonation come with time and practice in due course, but for adults the difference between expectation and actual output can be crippling."[/i]

I agree with this entirely. As an adult, I know which performers I like and who I would like to play like. It would never have occurred to me as a child to compare different performances of the same piece. My daughters are just happy to get the notes and rhythm right, I want something much more from my own playing.

Something no one seems to have mentioned yet is the fact that the theoretical side is often far easier for an adult to understand. Understanding division and fractions, for example, makes it much easier to understand the beat.

I think prior experience means that adults progress differently from children; particularly if they have had experience of an instrument as a child (even if it is from a completely different family). I sometimes think it might have been better for me on the oboe to have spent more time on simpler pieces - I only discovered a couple of months ago, for example, that you don't tongue the same way on an oboe as on a recorder or a flute. Because I could tongue convincingly in easy pieces, my teacher never actually told me that with an oboe the tongue is supposed to touch the reed and not just the roof of your mouth - with his real beginners he explains in detail what to do.

EDIT: Apologies I seem to have messed up multiple quotes so have put other people's words in italics instead.

So that we can tailor our approach to their needs?

I think dcmbarton has some good points.

I was hugely motivated and disciplined as a teenager for what I was doing then; that drive is the same.

I don't feel as an adult that having listened to more music has helped me, because it's clear to me now that
my ears are only just now opening. Before I could only say if something was nice or not. Now I can say a little more.
It helps me to play a piece if I've heard it. But surely that is true for children as well.

I would be ecstatic to get a gold star if my teacher gave them out ........

I think I'm street smarter than I was, but since I was so very naive before that's not saying much.
I think I'm better at managing my time. I'm not convinced that nerves or shyness are age related.
I have the education to be able to open a book on musical harmony and give it a go, but I'm not sure
I'm getting too far with it reading it on my own.

I have particular strengths that my teacher builds on, but so do children.

To be honest, it is my inner child that loves and wants to play. I decided early on in my piano-playing
that I would have to learn like a child: ie from the beginning, with an open mind, pragmatic towards mistakes,
curious, fearless. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to learn at all.

Like many children and teenagers I have no goals for my playing that I can articulate, other than I want to play.
And don't both teenagers and adults feel equally awkward at student recitals - for all different reasons?

If my teacher taught me according to some manual, "this is how to teach people over 30" (say) it
would probably be so patronising that I'd give up. The whole premise of such a manual is patronising, isn't it?
At least, it seems that way to me. Besides, I liked the pictures of animals in the tutor books I started on.

In summary, the only differences being an adult seem to be that I can drive myself to my piano lesson
and pay for it myself. I can make decisions eg about exams, without consulting a parent, but then
I consult my partner.....

Yes - this would have been my reply - but David said it for me.

Maybe the difference is one of being judgmental. When adults hear themselves play a piece they have heard recorded by the gifted and famous, the expectation is it should sound like that. Of course it doesn't. I think adults are very affected by that gap between what one sounds like vs what one is used to hearing.

I think part of the reason people have such divergent views in this thread is that "children" (and arguably "adult" as well) is such a huge category.

What do a 3-year-old starting suzuki lessons and a 17 year-old auditioning for music colleges have in common?

When I say "children" I tend to think of my own (and so exclude teenagers) but even so there is still a huge difference between my daughter at six and my daughter at ten.

You are very right that it is making some assumptions, and what might be a broad generalization certainly wouldn't cover everyone. One example I can think of is Opera. I am sure there are some children out there somewhere who listen to it, but it is decidedly adult not just thematically but in some ways a person has to have some familiarity to the themes to really dive in and experience it completely. A child's concept of love and loss is going to be very different from a thirty-year olds/adult response to those themes in Wagner.

Some of the music I haven't heard before is harder for me, since I don't know how it ought to sound and if I got it right, yet easier because I don't have the kind of expectations for sound built in by having heard it for years. It is easier for me to play something I've heard before but much harder for me to be happy with my performance. I don't have a wide breathe of classical music exposure, I was not exposed to much of it as a child, and what I have heard until the last few years has been pretty pedestrian mainstays. It's only in the last five years I've been systemically combing the genre to listen and learn.

What fueled my love for violin as a child and teen was hearing it in popular music, especially in my twenties when I started listening to Tanita Tikaram. I liked the violin and cello so much I started exploring classical music.

A major part of it for me, maybe I can illustrate this way: I'm good at fly casting and laying a fly thirty yards away to a precise spot, in heavy Colorado winds. I am good at these things because I have been doing them for eleven years or more. I no longer feel like an idiot casting when tourists take my picture when I am fly fishing the Moraine Basin in Rocky Mountain National Park or up on on the Barns' Pool of the Madison River in Montana in Yellowstone. (Which happens constantly if you start near the parking area.) People watching me doesn't make me feel self-conscious anymore as I have gotten used to it and I have been doing it (fly casting) long enough that I am proficient. When I was first learning it was another matter, I was so uncomfortable because I was so unskilled. The last thing I wanted was anyone to see me or watch me. I did most of my fishing in more remote, tourist free areas, those first couple of years. This is cogent and germane as I feel the same way about violin, even playing in front of the instructor. I don't want her to see me be so awkward and unskilled because I am used to, at my age, being proficient or good at what I do in public settings. Does that make sense?

Others have given lots of reasons, but I think the main one is the same as the reason young children tend to pick up languages naturally if they are exposed to them: they tend to be far less afraid to make mistakes and far less worried if what they are producing isn't exactly perfect. They don't even think about it - they dive straight in. Adults tend to be much more self conscious, self-aware, and self-critical. It's not necessarily anything to do with whether they have heard a lot of music or not, though I do believe that can have an impact. (& I'm not sure that whether the music one has heard is of particular pieces that one is learning or not is here or there; it's fair surely to say that most adults have been exposed to more music of varying sorts than most children, they've been alive longer to hear it!) The children who are very aware of the sounds they are making are those who tend to be very good later in life, and I do say "tend" because obviously none of these things apply to *every* child or *every* adult - I have known some adult learners who apparently are totally unaware of what they sound like, and for whom there is a chasm between how they think they sound and how they actually sound, and conversely I have met children who were intensely aware of the sound they are making.

But yes, in general, MOST adults are far more aware of the difference between how they sound and how things "should" sound, and most adults are far more wary/nervous/embarrassed about being potentially bad at something than others. We are usually used to being reasonably competent in some area or another, and being a total dunce again is a bit scary! Whereas children are used to having to learn lots of new things all the time. Of course, every individual is different and I don't think anyone has suggested that one should treat all adult learners one way and all child learners another. It is, however, as well to be aware of tendencies.

As a 7 year old I thought I was amazing at the violin if I could play all the notes in a tune containing only open strings and very simple rhythms. At 17 I thought I was doing OK if I could play all the notes of a grade 6 or 7 piece in tune and sounding all right. At 27 I got frustrated because my ability to know how I wanted to play the violin and to hear intonation far outstripped the skill of my fingers - even though I was at 27 a much better musician and probably not much worse a violinist. It's partly because I have been exposed to a lot of music over those years. It's largely because I've grown up.

To go back to the language analogy, as adults we have different advantages to children. I did Russian for four years at uni and I could certainly speak it better than a Russian 5 or 6 year old who had been speaking it for a similar length of time But I was certainly more nervous about using it, more nervous about making mistakes, etc, than those 5 or 6 year olds would be.

Well, it's your right to think it's not useful. As is my right, I disagree.

A a teacher, I find it very helpful to know how the learning styles of my students are likely to differ, broadly speaking. Of course, one can never know for sure what any one person will be like as a learner, but one certainly has things to look out for, be aware of and watchful for - not just child/adult but many other areas. (This is not just applicable in music but in any kind of teaching.)

More importantly (to me, at least!): As a learner, I find it reassuring and helpful to know that my perfectionism and self-consciousness as an adult learner are by no means unusual and are in fact "normal", and something that many others around me identify with. And, not least, I find it very useful to know that although it can be annoying in many respects to be so much more self-conscious and self-critical than I was as a child, it is also something that can be a strength in my learning.

No one is trying to pigeonhole anyone. But the fact is, children and adults are different in how they learn. Not better or worse - and it's not as if it's a switch that gets flicked aged 18. But as long as we treat each person (and indeed ourselves) as individuals with specific learning traits, habits, pros and cons, knowing general traits and the weaknesses and strengths of adult learners can be useful as a student or a teacher alike.

Just an addendum:


I don't think it's about ability at all... the difference between an adult and a child isn't about how much talent they have. It is about how they learn and how they judge their playing; their expectations, and the expectations of those around them.

"All generalizations are useful!" Or maybe "No generalizations are useful!"

Or Maybe "some generalizations are useful to some people some of the time".

That's the one!

I don't think it's reasonable to pidgeon hole people into those who find generalisations useful and those who don't, though. The individual is, after all, more important .

Aw - Robodoc is a specialist, and I'm a generalist, though an individualistic one* - are you a general specialist, or a specialist specialist, Robodoc?

*mainly because it helps me to feel important

Yes

This reminds me of a mathematical joke.
"Either you believe in the law of the excluded middle, or you don't".

It was the email signature of a logician (a colleague) and it took me ages to get it.

Here's another:
"There are 3 kinds of mathematician. Those who can count and those who can't."