I think it's something about the point at which a baby can identify itself in the mirror, *before* it can put a word to it. So, it's seeing 'me' but doesn't know what 'me' is and doesn't associate it with what it's seeing... if that makes any sense!

That makes sense - why couldn't they just write that in the first place??

Oooh ok, actually now you mention it, that does make sense... So that's why it's like an intermediate stage before language acquisition... Thank you!

But then, I'm confused because the way I understood it, the Real (the impossible to verbalise world of need/instinct etc) was traumatic when it infringed on the Symbolic Order (the world of social rules etc after language acquisition), so even though the Real is always there, you can't be conscious of the two at the same time... kind of... but then this seems like an intermediate stage between the two when you are conscious of both worlds?! SO confused, you wouldn't think I'd been reading this stuff all holiday.

Lottie - what's wrong with a Masters in English? I plan to do one too, eventually. I haven't read any Derrida - he's the deconstruction one, right? So many people have told me I must read some though, so I'll have to soon. Sounds interesting.
Though maybe then I will actually understand this stuff.

The part I found fascinating about the 'mirror stage' theory is that there is a 'state of being' which is pre-language and pre-awareness that some writers consider as a state of something I can only simplify as 'floating joy'. It is the aquisition of knowledge and awareness that corrupts this state (although this happens soon after birth rather than at the 'mirror' stage) but that the corruption is traumatic, inevitable (Symbolic Order) and irreversible (we can forget but not 'un-learn' knowledge).

For more on this try Helene Cixous and Julia Kristeva... but be warned.. lots of big words in very long lines (And I could never see why they didn't just use straight forward language .)

Oh there's nothing wrong with having a degree in English - I had a fantastic time being a student and adored the subject (and even went on to a PhD (which I couldn't finish due to illness.. long story)).

A degree in English is such a fascinating education in cultural, philosophical, political, historical, theoretical and social awareness too that it's a great opening for all sorts of jobs in the future.

I ponder the whole "consciousness" thing quite a lot, and the only conclusion I can reach is that ignorance must be bliss.

Because they're French
I wrote my thesis in French and my supervisor was worried that my language was too simple. She kept suggesting I make the sentences longer and more complicated but since French is not my mother tongue I just couldn't do it. When I got the external examiners' reports they both praised my "clear" expression and during the viva commented that it was one of the nicest theses they had ever had to read because they hadn't had to read every sentence at least twice to understand what I meant.

I certainly hope so - I'm aiming to get a PhD in English. I want to be a lecturer/researcher.
Is that 'state of being' what Lacan calls the Real? My essay is kind of arguing that Carter rewrites Lacan, allowing her heroines to break the limits of the Symbolic Order by developing the Mirror Stage into a mode of self-identification without outside influence, which lets them re-enter the Real... Kind of... reversing the irreversible.
It sounds insane when I write it like that, hopefully my argument will be a bit more convincing.

Forgotten how good 'March of the Mods' was...they've just played it on the radio

Love the change of subject, Barry! I was just feeling distinctly out of my depth on having read Lucy's post, so it was quite a relief to actually understand yours!

That makes sense, Lucky. You've actually summed up your argument well there - make sure you sum it up as clearly and concisely as possible in the intro and conclusion to your essay as well.

Once listened to...stuck in your brain for ages...

Yep, that's what I mean Flossie A friend brought some back from Vienna for my family. Very yummy.

You should also check out Julia Kristeva and theory of the semiotic (infantile pre-Oedipal).. maybe not relevant to your essay but I think it's very interesting in relation to Carter and the pre-'symbolic order'. I think a lot of Carter's fiction explores this status and also abjection and intertextuality.

(mmm cranky and rusty old wheels turning in my brain there I'm really more Winnie-the-Pooh these days )

Oh I used to love that!

It's interesting how we have two separate conversations running here - one on Lacan etc and one on the march. I wonder what Derrida and Deleuze would say about it.


There's also Elizabeth Groz and Moira Gatens as well.

Wow, I'll check out all these recommendations - but after I've handed my essay in, as I don't want to be tempted into adding lots more stuff to it! I'm already two hundred words over the word count, and only sort of vaguely drifting around the general area of the truth.
I've read some Elizabeth Grosz (The Feminist Introduction) and it was really interesting... I'm not sure I used it in my essay though.

I haven't practised my clari for most of this week

I've been too tired and too cold

Need to do more next week.

No! Staying at home for as long as possible.


I've eaten these...they're ok, not my favourite.

It's my fourth anniversary of joining the forums today

happy anniversary.

Thanks CJB

I've just been listening to 'Lovely Day' by Bill Withers. How I'd love to be able to hold onto that last really, really long note in the final chorus

There's snow on the ground.
There's snow falling out of the sky.
The rats are noisily attacking some walnuts.
I'm eating some Christmas cake.
I have made some sausage rolls.
And the Great Escape is on the telly.

IT'S CHRIIIIIIIISTMAAAAAAAAS!!!

(just a little bit late...!)

Happy anniversary, Barry! It's hard to imagine the forums without you now.

Aw thanks BM. It's been a fun four years!

(but darn it, missed the Great Escape )

and Belated Happy Anniversary Barry

Thanks Crotchetymum!

I want my flute.

The Intelligence test has been taken out of the Krypton Factor this year

I think it's my forum anniversary around now too Barry ... *thinks* ... must be six years.

I really must stop procrastinating - organising recorder music will NOT help the linear algebra situation!

Happy forum anniversary!

Hadn't thought about the Krypton Factor for years. They used to film it (may still do) at an army camp near Upper Ramsbottom (not joking!) and the assault course there was utilised for competitions for all sorts of military units. A few years back yours truly and his team of Territorial infantry soldiers from the Worksop area held the all time record for completing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkOZWW3-EAU

Just... what.... the...?

I *think* the new assault course is the other side of the Pennines. It's certainly not the original course...

A friend just emailed me to say he is now the proud owner of a double bass, a trombone, a drums set, a clarinet and a few other instruments he's not sure what they're called.
Apparently a shop had bought these instruments for decoration and he was just walking past when he saw them throwing them away in a truck and when he asked if he could have one instead of it being thrown away they said he could have the lot!!!
Shame he doesn't play any!! but he plans to sell them so should make quite a bit of money from them as they apparently are in immaculate condition and knowing the shop they probably got some really good instruments!!!

Wow! Might be worth valuing them before putting them up for sale

Get some info on them - people here might be interested?

It amazes me that some people would just throw away brand new instruments when other people like us will be saving for ages trying to buy just one! Why not give them to a local school??!! hmmmm....
Will speak to him and will try to find out more about the make of the instruments etc...

Poor instruments. I'm glad thay got rescued. You'll have to try an persuade your friend that it's an omen to show that he's now meant to learn one of them.

He is unfortunately not musical at all and has no interest whatsoever in learning one!! Shame!!

So the story is that they bought these brand new just for display?

If the Clarinet is any good I'd be interested....

I could certainly tell you if the manufacturer is a good one

Alto flute?
Electric violin?
Piccolo? (yes I know I already have one but I want a slightly different sound )

Latest news...by the time I spoke to him again yesterday he had sold the lot for £200!!!! He was very vague about who he sold it too, still doesn't have a clue what some of the instruments were or what make the ones he could name were but was over the moon at the thought of having made £200 by doing..nothing and getting rid of everything straight away. Someone did get a bargain!!!!
Shame he sold them so quickly but I guess having no interest in music, if he had found a brand new fridge or cooker he would have been as happy!!!

Sounds like someone did get a bargain!

Missypiano - make sure you wind him up by suggesting that he could have hit 4 figures if he'd not been so hasty!

I was going to mention it to him but then he seemed so happy I didn't want to spoil his joy!!!




I felt relieved when he assured me there was no piano there named Steinway though (actually no piano at all)!!!
But yes...somebody did get a bargain!!!!