Whats the best way to teach scales? Start with one octave and when thats learnt teach 2? Or start with 2 octaves straight away? Should they be allowed to play them hands together when learning scales i.e. pre-grade 1 or should pupils stick to hands separately? Thanks

Hi.

I'm not a piano teacher but did have lessons when I was younger. I believe that for piano exams they are not required to play hands together until grade 3. But I imagine the best approach would be to judge it by each student. Start hands separately and if they take to the scales really well I don't see any reason why they can't have a go hands together - even if they're very early beginners. Normally the best approach to scales is to start with 1 octave up and down (sometimes down and up) and then gradually extend the range to 2 octaves and more. But for pianists it might be best to have a go at 1 octave hands separately and then maybe try both hands together - sticking to 1 octave. I'm sure there are many piano teachers on here who will be able to let you know their exact methods though.

Lucid

Usually on a pupils first lesson I have them playing C 1 octave contrary, if not 1 octave then a 5 finger scale. It's great for motivating them as they can play something with both hands straight away. Most pupils learn a lot of keys 1 octave before moving on to 2, although I taught someone yesterday on a first lesson the concept of crossing under and over and they played C major 4 octaves so that may be a new approach i'm going to try from now on. If they are having trouble remembering finger positions it's a good idea to crush all of the notes in one hand position at a time. eg fingers 123 on CDE played as a chord, then fingers 1234 on FGAB as a chord.

Piano scales for AB are hands together from grade 2.

One danger of playing hands together too soon is that fingering starts out haphazard, and is then very difficult to sort out.
Many teachers wouldn't teach "thumbs under" technique in the first few lessons either.

Maybe I should point out that my beginners tend to be aged 10-adult, I rarely take on anyone younger. My pupils don't have a problem with fingers misbehaving!

When teaching youngsters we always begin by playing what I call the Animal Song. After a few basics about note finding and D the Dog etc we play the scale of C major using finger 3 to play each note.
"C the cat, D the dog, E the elephant, F the frog" etc.
This helps to get used to the sound of a major scale and the way around the keyboard.
Later I introduce "thumb passing under fingers" work and they learn how to play a one-octave scale using the standard finger pattern. The scale of C for the left hand is played descending from Middle C at first so that the 1 2 3 thumb pattern is well established. Contrary motion C major follows and then lots of other scales using the same C major pattern for one octave only. I always introduce minor scales too, very early on.
When the time comes to teach two or more octave scales we play a one octave scale ascending, move the hands and play another one an octave above the starting point for the original one. Changing to a "tea-coffee" (Crotchets for the key notes and quavers for the rest) rhythm helps as it shows just where both thumbs should be.
I find that my pupils really enjoy scales. Yesterday I had a mini tournament with a grade seven pupil where we had an end of the piano each and played one octave scales on every note, moving up chromatically. We played majors and both forms of minor.
One of my pet hates is to see a young pupil coming for a first lesson who has been shown a C major scale by a parent or friend. They always play with the most dreadful hand position and stick their elbows high as the thumbs move under the fingers. It can take quite a while to un-learn this.

I think you have to decide these things on an individual basis - one advantage of individual lessons! Generally contrary motion is easier than similar, as the fingering (and notes, in some scales) are symmetrical, so C major contrary (one octave) is quite a good place to start - and is, of course, one of the Grade I scales. Incidentally, I've found that Eb contrary is quite a good way to introduce this scale at Grade III before doing it in similar motion.

There are lots of little exercises you can use, or make up, to introduce scales (some good ones in Piano Time 1) rather than leaping in with several octaves if the pupil doesn't seem ready for that.

Incidentally, I've found that Eb contrary is quite a good way to introduce this scale at Grade III before doing it in similar motion.

Yes - I find that works well too ! Much easier to learn than Bb ...

Agree with Noodle about building up gradually too.

Thanks everyone thats really helpful

Start with B major, hands separate. It is the most comfortable for the hands, and the easiest for learning to pass the thumb under. Learn one octave initially but quickly move to two octaves, as that includes the RH technique of passing the thumb under the 4th finger as well as the third. Going beyond two octaves is less important - though the greater distance, and different sonorities, require more control.

The basic technique is fingers barely leaving contact with the keys, and even tone. Later, other varieties of touch, rhythm and accentuation can be practiced

When the fingering and touch are absolutely secure introduce hands together. The main emphasis on hands together is for LH and RH notes to sound precisely together. This is acheived through sloooooow practice and intent listening. And when it is achieved constant vigilance is needed to avoid back-sliding.

Add other scales in the same way. Work on groups of scales together in which the basic fingering is the same.

The obvious problem here is that LH starts on finger 4....

It is a FACT certainly. But why is it a problem? There are several finger patterns to learn. (e.g. Bb maj, RH starts with 2 on Bb). Why should:

LH 54321 321 4321 321

be assumed to be the "right"one to learn first?

I like B maj as a first scale too

Technically, I like to do a few scales similar before introducing contrary, as this avoids the common problem of the elbows swinging out like chicken wings whenever the thumbs go under.

We play on the black keys by ear quite a bit first - eg Frere Jacques starting on F# , with the LH starting and RH imitating in canon is a good challenge ( for adults as well as younger beginners). Maybe I'm lucky, but most students crack this in a week . This can lead nicely into F# major similar - quite hard to get wrong, as the black key pattern is so helpful, and the thumbs meet on the 2 white keys. This is usually the first 'hands tog' scale we do. Then D flat major, then maybe B, and E - and then E major contrary.

Then we 'scale' up the white keys only - starting anywhere except C, to get used to the sound of different patterns. Fingering : 1st using 12, 12, etc with elbow still - when that's getting smooth then 123, 123 - and finally 1234. Only then do we focus on 'standard' fingering for white key scales, and do clusters of 3 4 3 5 up (and down) the keyboard, emphasising the use of the wrist to change position.

When introducing a new scale - eg A maj, we'd do the clusters starting on A with white keys only, and then work out which black keys are needed. Then similar, contrary, various rhythms, and (eg) crotchets in LH, quavers in RH and then swap over.

Of course, we'd only spend approx 5 ish mins on this at the start of every lesson, before getting on to some real repertoire. It's all developmental and cumulative. Hopefully.

I can't imagine starting hands tog scales with C maj and then gradually adding #s. Not only is it very tricky technically - the lack of black keys makes it hard to kep track of where the thumbs should come!

Phew - anyone would think I was keen on scales or something! I'm not - it's only a means to an end. And there's no point in doing them before some basic finger control's been established, so I wouldn't introduce too many too soon.

Oh - and I try not to look at the AB scale syllabus too much, to see which scale is at which grade, as I think they've got it all a bit back to front. ( Well, of course I do check before they do an exam, but that doesn't happen too often!)

Hmmm - that makes it the most expeditious way to prepare a student to pass Grade 2. That has got nothing to do with the best way to build a solid technique from the ground up.

Most students won't attempt Grade 2 until they have been playing for a year or so, and in many cases for much longer. So that is plenty of time to start with Bmaj, master the basic techniques, and then progress through the progressively trickier E maj, A maj, D maj, and G maj to the scale that is by far the most difficult to play smoothly, the awkward and nasty Cmajor.

Either I've been very lucky (or just very insistent ) with pupils and scales.

The routine I seem to have got into with most is that we play them first and foremost before we open any books. I suppose I've taken that from the way my early lessons were structured, but it seems to work as a warm up, plus it gets them out of road quickly! If they think they can't start on the music before they've played their scales it's amazing how quickly they pick them up

Only a few seem to want to bother with scale books and that's usually if they already have one from years ago. If I'm teaching someone from the beginning I don't really bring scale books up unless I think it would really be useful.

B major has a nice easy "pattern" on the keyboard, and E major is good like that too. Sometimes the music with the 4 or 5 sharps makes them think it's harder to play than it actually is in practise.

I don't know if there is a "best" way to teach them as I do it different ways depending on the student. It's usually simple enough to teach 2 octaves once they are playing one. In a C major pattern, you are just putting your thumb where you would normally put your 5th finger to go back down - then you're just repeating the same pattern. Once you can play 2 ocatves, you can play 4 if you want it's all the same

We do hands together just whenever they are ready, but it's a good idea to still play them separately as well. I got caught out at grade 8 being asked for a scale with only left hand and felt really stupid because I hesitated... mind you if I'd read the syllabus properly I would have been ready for that

Hear, hear, Tom. Maybe, one day in the distant future, the AB will wake up to this - and teachers around the world will have to adjust their order of teaching scales! But I'm not holding my breath that it happens in my life time.

Anyway - do we only teach scales (and other stuff?) because it's on the syllabus of some exam board? !

How you play them is the most important thing. Students are more likely to be successful with B, then F# and D flat ( I'm talking about hands tog here) - after which we start knocking off the #s, as Tom suggests.

The AB might say that the syllabus is the way it is because there isn't much music written for young players in the keys of B, F# and D flat, and that they're playing the scales of the the keys that their pieces are likely to be in. But there isn't much music that has a 2 octave scale hands together for any length of time either. And the # keys aren't hard to play in, only to read..

I always teach scales without a scale book and my students seem to pick them up quickly - and enjoy them. I think lots of seperate hands work is essential, but I do progress quite quickly from 1 octave to 2. I do agree that C major isn't the easiest scale, and although I do usually start with it (ingrained in my up-bringing, perhaps!) I often go on to scales like E and B major rather than G and D, as they lie so much more easily under the fingers. However, I've never though of starting with B major, mostly because of the LH fingering - maybe I'll give it a try!

I had a student who was asked for a scale with one hand only in her grade 3 exam and it really threw her! I know that the syllabus does say seperately and together, but it happens so seldom that I don't usually mention it in exam preparation - maybe I should! Anyone else been caught out?

I find the younger pupils love to be able to play a "long scale" and once one octave is fluent and the hand action neat I show them (as ad libitum mentioned) that they can easily play 4 octaves - all they have to remember is 3 - 4 - 3 - 4 - and so on (ie 123, 1234) until they want to stop - then put down finger 5. They all catch on to this and seem to enjoy being able to do it. I don't find scales a problem at this stage at all - it's later on, notably in the middle grades, when lists are required for exams that they can be more of a problem with pupils who would, perhaps understandably, rather play pieces.

I never use scale books at the early grades, and if a transferring pupil brings one we tend not to use it - although convincing some they can play without the book is not easy.

I tend to use a book at the higher grades when the requirements get more complicated and it's helpful to have a checklist.