I'm getting a violin in just under a couple of weeks, and have never played one in my life! I've just realised that I'm a bit confused as to how to find the note on the violin that's shown on the stave...for example, if the stave says the A above middle C, how do I know which string I need to play on the violin?

I know this is the same for, say, the piano, but I guessing it's easier to tell on the piano seeing as the notes are all laid out straight in order, whereas on the violin (and other string instruments) it's in a confusing order!!

And also, how far apart do you need to play to go up in semitones? I bet the lack of visible frets makes this really hard for beginners!!!

I'll probably find out this in violin books when I buy one, but I won't be able to get to a music shop (or have the money to) for another couple of weeks, so thought I'd ask you experts on here for some tips!!

Sorry if I didn't make any sense, and thanks in advance!!

Laura

This probably won't help, just to warn you!

As you probably know, the strings are tuned in 5ths. The thickest is G and from there you have D, A and E (the thinnest string). The G is the first G below middle C, and the E is 2 above middle C, if you see what I mean.

Semi-tones are generally pretty close together, but then so are tones when you get far up the fingerboard. It would be easier to show you than to try to write it down. Being 'musical' already, you shouldn't find it too hard to hear what you're doing, and you will get better with time.

Hope this helps a tiny bit, and have fun with your new violin!

I see Rosie agrees with me!

You'll learn all this when you get your violin and have some lessons, but the lowest (thickest and furthest-left) string of the violin is the G below middle C. Then they go up in 5ths so you have D, A and E - so to answer your question, the A above middle C is the second-highest string on the violin. I wouldn't really say the notes are in a confusing order, they're in the same order as they are on a piano, it's just easier if after a few notes you move up on to the next string rather than continuing to climb up the same one! hope that made sense.

For most people, semitones in first position is having your fingers touching each other, rather than there being any gaps between them.

Are you going to have lessons or play by yourself?

good luck.

Edit: complete double-post with Miss Ross. Sorry!

I'm not allowed lessons, so I'll be teaching myself. That I know isn't recommended, but I don't have the money to pay for lessons (as I already have singing and piano lessons). But one of my music teachers at school plays the violin as their main instrument, so hopefully I'll be able to ask her for some help so long as she's not too busy!

Thanks Rosie91 and MissRoss for the explanations - that does help, but as you both said, it seems like it'll be easier to understand once I get the violin!

Laura

You won't have much trouble working out how the fingering goes, but you'll need some help with practical stuff like how to hold the violin and the bow. Though it really isn't a substitute for a live teacher, you can learn a lot from professorv's videos on youtube. A good video is better than a bad teacher anyway.

While I appreciate money is tight for many these days, I develop a huge amount of angst, wailing and a knashing of teeth, when reading that yet another person is about to attempt the violin without even investing in a few lessons.

The violin is probably one of the least intuitive instruments to learn and if you get it wrong at the beginning, you could end up with an injury due to bad posture and/or make little or no progress because of ignorance in the fundamental basics.

Please, please try to get some help from a violin teacher. I know there are web-based videos and these may possibly be better than a very bad teacher, but the basics really should be learnt under the guidance of an experienced player and one who knows what correct technique is.

Yeah bad habbits are very hard to kick.

My first teacher who I had for about 5 years was great at teaching but didn't help me correct some of the basics like bow hold and left arm.

I didn't realise it was wrong till I changed school and got a different teacher who told me I am going to have to change.

It took about 2 years to deal with it. I recently got a different teacher becuase I moved on a different schol for 6th form. My teacher couldn't believe some of the habbits I got into.

I did that with a teacher. Without a teach I would have done that all my career and become a very bad violinsit and never known how to do it correctly. Especially as I was told I had a natural talent on violin, and several other instruments I never took up!

Try and get at least a lesson a month, even with a tight budget. It will help you enormously and you will thank yourself for having the lessons.

Littler people, or people with thin fingers, will have spaces between their fingers when playing semitones, bigger people or especially people with fat fingers, won't. But it's better to know in your head how the semitiones are meant to sound and let your ears guide you rather than having too many ideas of how close fingers are meant to be to each other. If you play one note wrong and then put another finger next to the last one, that note's going to be even more wrong than the last one, and so it goes on.

Indeed. Having been repeatedly told by teachers that for a semitone the fingers should be touching, I eventually twigged (for myself) that this may be so for a violin, but it ain't so for a viola.

Have a look online for video masterclasses: as has already been said, it'll be easier if you can see what you need to do.

If you have any problems when you've started learning, I'm sure people will be happy to help

It can be tricky on your own... but once you've got the basic technique it gets easier. Learning to read music is always the hardest thing to learn when kids start an instrument - obviously there's no problem there, so I'm sure you'll have fun!


What kind of fiddle are you getting?

Maybe you could find a string ensemble to play with? Then you could see how everyone else does things and pick up a few pointers. Plus it's fun and ensemble playing is good experience.

Your piano and singing background should make it easier for you to keep up, even if your playing isn't quite up to the mark. If there are bits that are beyond your technical ability, just miss them out and join in again when it gets to something you can manage. As long as you play in tune and don't get lost, you should be fine.
My string group is meant to be for grade 2 upwards, but as I'm self-taught I haven't done any grades. The lady who runs it encouraged me to go along anyway, and it's really good.

Something like that would mean you weren't completely on your own - if other people notice you doing something completely wrong I would guess they'll point it out - and it would be a lot cheaper than individual lessons.

I agree with AmandaL in principle - it's best to get some proper lessons to make sure you don't get into bad habits. But the financial and practical realities mean that there are always going to be some people who just get an instrument and go it alone. Bowed strings are among the worst instruments to chose if you're going to do that, but there are still going to be some people who decide to try. In those cases, finding a damage-limitation strategy is probably better than nothing.

T.

Assuming their technique is up to scratch........ there are a lot of good amateur string players out there, but there are also some shockingly bad ones too.

Especially in the sort of ensembles that might accept a beginner. This sort of thing can be fun, as long as the standard isn't far too high, but it's no way to learn how things ought to be done.

I would imagine that any ensemble would have /someone/ who could show her how to tune the thing and who knows enough to point out any glaring problems (e.g. if she rests the neck of the violin on the heel of her hand).

My guess is that if she can't figure it out for herself and she's not going to have any real tuition, playing with an ensemble would be better than nothing.

T.

Well, I'm teaching myself, and have been doing fine thus far. I understand why some people consider tuition irreplaceable (in some cases, it may be - I'm a linguist, and a tutor, so am very aware of how much scaffolding some people need), but not everyone needs a tutor. I'm teaching myself various other things, including languages that don't use roman script, so am accustomed to the levels of motivation necessary to teach oneself in a more challenging area.

I can't afford a tutor either (no ifs or buts - I can either teach myself to play a violin on hire, or not learn to play the violin at all. I'm enjoying my endeavours very much, but if I were forced to pay for tuition in order to continue, I'd have to return the violin to the hirer, and give up.

I've found lots of information online, and in charity shops (books, mostly). I have a fingering chart (I'm looking at it right now), and am trying to remember exactly where I found it. It's very useful, and if you can find one, you can print it of, and stick it somewhere visible. Otherwise, I worked out my finger positions, then attached a thin strip of post-it note at that point, to help me learn. It worked, and when I tried the violin I'm using now, I was chuffed to note that I didn't need the tape - I just shifted my fingers up and down the board a bit until the notes sounded right (I've been playing recorders for years, and have a clue about how things should sound).

I'll try and find this fingering chart for anyone who might be able to benefit.

But it's not the same as having input from a good teacher. Knowing which finger goes where is the easy bit checking hand shape, thumb position, that the left arm is moving when you change strings, that your right elbow isn't drooping, that the bow's straight etc all at the same time is not.
When my second son started violin I did borrow a violin and pizzed along with him to encourage him but last October when I decided to learn to play properly I found a teacher and it's the best thing I could've done. I had no problem reading music, working out rhythms etc and with my teachers guidance I have made better progress than I could've hoped. I can change position happily into 3rd, can do a little vibrato, have learnt different bowings and most importantly for me been able to join the rest of the family when they play chamber music. I wouldn't have done half of it without my teacher.
It's also worth knowing that bad technique not only will eventually slow down your progress and stop you reaching your potential but can take years to rectify. My First son was allowed to develop a bad technique, because he could play well in tune despite it, but when he changed teacher he had to go back to basics and relearn everything.
Please, please if you want to learn well get a teacher.

Without wishing to sound impertinent, how do you know you are doing fine if you've not had a violin teacher/professional player watch you play? What 'feels' right to most beginners on the violin, is not actually correct technique. They find a way to do something that makes it comfortable for them (human nature with anything), but because what they are doing is in fact incorrect, it will hinder their progress in the long term.

You said you have found a lot information in books, charity shops and so forth, but interpretation of a picture or written text is subjective to the person reading or looking at it. Much like the correct pronounciation of words in a foreign language. Without some guidance, it's very easy for an inexperienced learner in a new subject to travel along a merry learning path in complete ignorance of the truth.

Motivation is not in question here. Indeed I studied for a degree in physics, part-time, which although semi-tutored was very much self-directed learning - and in a subject that most wouldn't even tackle if being spoon-fed the information. It took an incredible amount of tenacity and dedication to stick at it. If you posess the determination to succeed at something, which clearly you do, then surely you owe it to yourself to seek a little guidance, even if only on a very occasional basis.

Amanda. Hello, and thanks for your response. You don't sound impertinent at all. IF someone told me they were learning a language with no support at all, I'd wonder how. I have a good friend who used to play strings in an orchestra. She visited a couple of weeks after I started to learn, and watched me play, "Twinkle twinkle, little star". I was a bit slow, but apart from noting that she used a sponge to play her violin, she told me I was doing fine. I was expecting to sound like a cat on heat, but was very pleasantly surprised when I managed to produce a pleasant sound within minutes of picking up the bow.

If I'm not sure of a tune, I pick up one of my recorders, and play the tune on that. Then I return to the violin, and work on that technique until it sounds right.

Learners of foreign languages have a much easier time of it these days. Lots of multi media courses and materials, including Sky TV and the internet. A far cry from the days of text books and cassettes if we were lucky. Perhaps I'm lucky, and my lifetime of language learning has given me a good ear. Whatever it is, I know when whatever I'm trying to play sounds terrible, and when it sounds right (or even good). If I play badly, I work out what I'm doing wrong (alter position, more or less pressure, something else?) and remedy it.

One thing I'm wondering right now - does it matter about technique if the performance is not affected? Please note that I'm not being impertinent either, but am genuinely wondering here. I used to be a church bellringer, and know that sometimes people can get bogged down in technique, whilst actual performance would be fine if the ringers were able to just relax and enjoy what they were doing.

Stringmum. Hope I've managed to respond adequately to you in the above, too.

Technique becomes important if you want your playing to prgoress beyond a level that would equate to roughly Grade 5. Without it, improvement will literally grind to a halt. This is why Grade 5 is often referred to as the 'glass ceiling' of string playing - pupils either lack the facility to learn the advanced techniques, or lack the tenacity to stick at it for long enough to develop them fully. The learning curve does very much become exponential.

I'm certain bellringing is a lot more difficult than it looks, I've not tried it so I am not running it down at all, but playing the violin is also far more complex than it looks. There are a multitude of bowing techniques on the violin, all of which come into use in standard repertoire. To perform these bowing techniques the bow arm, wrist and hand have to be completely relaxed and supple - something a lot of learners have trouble with, their right hand and wrist being quite rigid. In order to play in high(er) positions on the fingerboard, the left arm and hand have to be in the right place in order to reach the notes with your fingers. The spacing between the notes right up there is also incredibly tiny, so an adaptable hand and a very good ear are essential.

There is no reason to get bogged down in technique, but a lot depends on how far you want to extend your ability. If you are happy playing a few folk, baroque, or simple tunes which take you no higher than 3rd position, then you'll be ok, but if you develop the desire to tackle more complicated repertoire and succeed musically with it, that's when technique is absolutely essential.

I really would if I could - I can see from everyone's responses that having a violin teacher is fundamental in playing the instrument...but it's not just the money side of it that is preventing me from having lessons - my mum really really hates the violin and has said that I definitely cannot have lessons. I said that if I did it would make me progress much faster and sound much better, but then she actually said "I hope you find you can't play the violin at all, because then you'll realise what a waste of money and time it is." (that does sound as if she's really unsupportive/etc, but really she is support - it's just not with the violin...she's fine with piano/voice!) But seriously, there's no persuading

But! I will be asking my music teacher for some help occasionally, and I 'kind of know' someone in the year above me who is grade 7 I think, and may be able to give me some advice too. And I'm 100% willing to give the online lesson things a go and see how I get on.

I might've just got myself a part time job, and I'll be learning to drive in November - so perhaps this time next year I'll be able to afford violin lessons and will be able to 'sneak out and drive myself' to them!

Well on the basis of that, go for it! And just try and get as much help (from real people) as you can.

My mother was never the most supportive person towards me either, so I can appreciate your predicament, but for her to say what she has is truly horrific . Do you think your mother has touch of jealousy? Is there something about the violin that may be touching a particularly raw nerve with her? (and not just that she says she doesn't like the sound). I know that my mother is a very jealous person in general - she doesn't want to do something herself, or so she claims, but doesn't like other people doing things either. It's sort of a double-edged sword in that whatever you do, you're wrong.

I'm getting one from Dawsons...it's a Stentor student I violin. It's only £70 - seeing as I don't have much money and don't know whether or not I'll 'get on' with a violin, I thought it'd be best to begin with a cheaper one, and then if I get along with it well, then I can invest in a more expensive one maybe for my birthday, Christmas or something.



Hmm no, she isn't really a jealous sort of person. I'm from an unmusical family, and she just really doesn't like the sound of the violin, and thinks I should just keep my focus on the piano (which I won't neglect, as I absolutely adore playing the piano). And she's apprehensive about me playing the violin because she doesn't like classical music and would hear everything that I would play on it as classical. If that makes sense!! If by chance of a miracle I was able to play the violin well, I don't think I'd be able to persuade her to like the violin, but she'd then probably be able to accept that even if she doesn't like it - I do!

I'm not trying to make her sound at all a bad person, because she's great - just anti-violin!

Anything's better than a bad teacher, hun!!

My mother was very anti-sound - the radio was never on when she was around, and the furthest I got in playing any music I'd bought while living at home was half of one track of an LP . Music practice had to be done behind closed doors, preferably when she wasn't in any nearby room. Luckily I wasn't particularly music-oriented anyway.

I have to assume that she found many sounds actively unpleasant, so maybe your mother has her own reasons for being anti-violin.

That said, do you think that the fact that you're aiming for three Grade 6s and also have GCSE on your plate might have something to do with it? She might feel quite differently when you have those milestones behind you!

Meanwhile, have to agree with StringMum. Even if you WANT to find out how to do things the right way, and WANT to learn, it's hard to get one thing right without getting something else wrong, so try to get as much input from violin-playing friends as possible.

What sort of advanced techniques do you have in mind, and what sort of facility does one need (given the tenacity)?
I wonder whether you might be understating your case a bit here. Personally I'd be content to feel that after a couple more years I'd be able to play in the less challenging kind of amateur orchestra (the kind that only asks for Grade 5, if that), and I imagine a lot of adult learners would feel the same. Do you think it's possible to get even this far without tuition? I don't think I could. I'm not even sure I can do it with tuition.


Laura, does your mum like any kind of music? You can play jazz on the violin, or rock, or folk. And where would "easy listening" be without the cascading strings?

Maybe your mum has had experience of what a beginner violinist sounds like? - which is of course what you will sound like, for a while. But you'd think that, if she isn't going to stop you learning the violin at all, she would want you to get beyond the beginner stage as soon as possible!

Well if you were anywhere near London, I could help you being a grade 7 level player.

If parents are saying no to lessons tehre is not a lot you cna do I am afraid. Unless you get a music scholarship at school and get free lesons of course!

make sure you get a practice mute when playing at home. At leat your mum won't have to listen to you!

Thanks for this, and your other comments, Amanda. My arm, wrists and hand have been completely relaxed, just because I can't tense them, or they'd hurt, and within a minute or two, it would be impossible to continue.

As for bellringing, well, you control a usually quite heavy bell by pulling on a rope, which is strung around a wheel. It can be an interesting experience for a person to ring a bell weighing a ton or so (you'd have to start pulling the rope to make the clapper sound a few seconds before you needed it, so something called ropesight is rather useful). There are lots of websites about bellringing and campanology though, so you could always have an interesting few minutes checking some of them out.

There must be something in the water with parents. I tried to play for my parents at Christmas (I was quite capable, and picked a tune I could play well). My mother just started to talk very loudly over my playing, and then picked up her phone and started to check her messages - even more loudly. I put my violin down, and told her how incredibly rude she was being. Her excuse was that she didn't like loud music. Funny how she does if it's her beloved Elvis Presley.

Well my mum likes dance music and R&B!! She often jokes we've kind of 'swapped' seeing as I like classical!! I think she just would hear the violin sound and think 'classical' - even if I was playing something in a different style!



Yes that probably does have something to do with it, although I've chosen to wait until this weekend to buy my violin so that my GCSE's are all over and done with. And my singing exam is in July, so that'll soon be out of the way too - and as I'm off school for the rest of this term (as I've finished my exams) I'll have lots of time to practise everything! But I understand your point - she did also say that this was one of the reasons, and said why couldn't I wait until I'm older to learn, but then I said one of the reasons for me learning was also so that I could play in an orchestra at Univeristy, which would also help with my general musical studies...

Not to mention being a great way to make new friends, which is after all what university is primarily about. I vividly remember (40 years on!) being told by a fellow student that being able to play the violin gave him a ready-made social circle wherever he might go. I was green with envy.

Probably your mother was concerned that you were even THINKING about violin rather than study, let alone actually playing it.....Total Mind Control is after all what we aim for!

Enjoy your summer, and no doubt singing means that you have a good sense of pitch, always an advantage with violin .