Well...i'm kinda nervous posting this after reading the "What Question Would You Post To Make Yourself Look Useless As A Teacher" thread...haha

But anyway...

In the Grade 2 B-2 piece (allegro moderato) there are quite a few notes which are staccato but are also under a phrase. Miraculously I have never encountered this before!!!

How should these notes be played? Thinking of the second last bar (I think...i'm trying to picture the page as I don't have the book with me) there are two notes played at once. Is one note staccato and the other connected? This would make sense, however I am still unsure in situations where there is only one note at a time.

I hope I have made that clear!

Thanks in advance!

slurred staccato generally means play semi-staccato.

(should cautiously add that of course there are many degrees or shades of staccato, and to some extend it depends on context / speed etc how staccato you feel is semi -)

Yes, semi-staccato. Students encountering this for the first time sometimes think it's a mistake! They wonder how it can be both staccato and legato at the same time....

I believe it's called mezzo staccato. Another weird combination is when you see a tenuto mark combined with a staccato dot. Or staccato combined with what looks like a tie (used, oddly, in some very elementary duets by Fanny Waterman).

Yes, indeed it is. I think one of our string players could perhaps also inform us that it is spiccato - which is something to do with just using one bow motion, I believe. But, yes, it's to be played semi staccato, the notes meaning to be played for approximately three-quarters of their length.

it's to be played semi staccato, the notes meaning to be played for approximately three-quarters of their length.

if I may put my pedant's hat on for a moment ...

mezzo?/ three-quarters??

Would dotted mezzo be better?

Now that would be confusing!!!!!

It's not the note that's mezzo, though, it's the staccato, and three quarters is halfway between a whole (the full value) and a half (staccato).

Precisely!

No, it's not spiccato. Spiccato means staccato playing but with the bow lifted from the string between notes. Of course it could be played in one bow, but just as often isn't.

Don't forget though, that at the time Reinecke was writing (which is the grade 2, B2 piece originally referred to) it was common practice to use staccato under a slur as a standard/accepted way of indicating an expressive emphasis. This usually meant it was required to be performed with a certain amount of rubato and probably with a slight ritenuto. It occurs from Mozart, Beethoven (a lot!) and even Chopin employed staccato dots under slurs to specifically indicate a ritenuto.

As the dotted slurred staccatos only occur in the B2 piece in the final bar and 5 bars before the end, I would say that it is clearly asking for rubato and expressive emphasis. - I would probably play them with a tad more pressure/a bit of extra weight, the first note leaning (time wise) into the second, but they would be also be slightly detached from the next group.

I've been taught that slurred staccato notes means non-legato.

Such a notation for a string instrument indicates the notes are to be played with successive bows in one direction, but depending on the context this could involve one of a number of different bowing actions, from slow deliberate lifted up bows, through to a ricochet down-bow action (think William Tell - down-down-up, down-down-up,...). Worth being aware of, as it can crop up in Grade 5 theory questions.

I've always referred to them as "detached notes"

A very sensible move I think!

Why thank you

Referring to staccato again, how are you meant to play staccato with the sustain pedal depressed. I've come accross many pieces where pedal is to be pressed and staccato dots are used, the sustain pedal stops the notes sounding detatched! any thoughts?

This has often worried me. (Did I hear calls of "get a life" ?)

No-one I speak to me can give me a rational explanation, and I have yet to see a book that deals with the issue. We are frequently told to be faithful to the score, but some scores are impossible.

Chopin and Debussy are major culprits.

I think, in Debussy's case, he uses notation to express the precise sound he would like if only it were possible for the instrument to realize it. It is then up to the performer/interpreter to figure out how to get as close as possible.

Chopin is more problematical.

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but when you play staccato with the sustain pedal depressed it creates a different sound to simply holding down the note - a 'bell-like' timbre. I've seen this effect used in several pieces where the sound of a bell is what the composer is trying to create (made clear by either the title or the explanatory blurb).

I don't know if this would apply specifically to Debussy or Chopin, but there's certainly a perceptible difference in tone quality.

This is true - but the difference comes from using a sharper attack - not from the earlier release. Just as, without pedal you can make a stacatto with a woodwind-like sound or a trumpety sound.

The problematic cases are where it is not clear how long the composer wanted the note to last. Did he want a different tone colour, or a shorter note, or both?

I guess the interpreter must first decide whether the score is intended to be precise instructions in movement of the fingers - in which case we just do as indicated, and see what effects we get - or indications of an idealized sound in the composer's mind, in which case we decide for ourselves what we will do to achieve it.

Trouble is most scores are sometimes one thing, sometimes the other, and composers often use identical notation for different intended effects.

I'm a new member on the forums, and have been following this thread with interest. I was remembering when I first came across staccato signs under a slur - it was the Arrieu Sonatine for flute. My (Dutch) teacher told me this was called "portato", a term used by string players, and should be played as tongued legato. She said that portato meant "carrying (the music) forward".

I also remember coming across it at one of Trevor Wye's International Summer School sessions in the 80s. Referring to the first phrase of the Faure Fantasie for flute, it was described as "portato" and also as "bell notes" We learnt that on each note there should be a little crescendo/diminuendo with vibrato, imitating a bell, and that each note should be tongued but joined to the next with the idea of moving the music forwards.

In the AB Guide to Music Theory Part 1, pp84 and 85, there is a discussion of it which shows a small degree of separation between such notes, a semi-quaver rest between each dotted quaver. For string players it says "string players will readily understand this as two separate notes played in one bow; pianists and others should also reiterate the second note".

Practically speaking, if it's a fast piece with slurred staccato I generally advise tongued legato, but for slower pieces teach bell notes. How do other people teach it?

I believe that there is recordings of all the grade pieces. Listen to the CD performance and try to copy that perhaps.

What, you mean a singer with chicken pox?????