I have a Grade 2 student who got 116 in Grade 1 with 16 in scales. Perfectly reasonable, you'd think.

She, however, has wild swings, particularly in scales. She has huge difficulty remembering them, can't really hear when they're right or not and, obviously, hates playing them, backed up by musical parents who think they're a waste of time. Last week they were pretty much in place but I knew it all depended on the day.

So she goes into Grade 2 and . . . you've never heard anything like it. There were scales with 18 notes going up and 12 coming down. Ones that went up as D major (ish) and came down as G minor (ish). Arpeggios that were random plonks.

Her pieces were very good (she likes bright, loud, dance-y pieces) but the scales were just hysterical. I wonder how low a mark one can ever get ?

Anyway, hope it makes you all feel better . . . . you've got to laugh sometimes.

This might sounds weird, but I quite like practicing scales sometimes... when I can play them.

I'm fine in exams, but I remember one lesson, I tried to play F minor after I had supposedly had a week to practice. It went oh so badly. My teacher just laughed and said "You're not supposed to be playing a chromatic!"

One of my adult students is really strugglng with scales. If you read the mark scheme in "These Music Exams" it seems you can only score zero if there is "no work offered". The next lowest band of marks ie a bad fail seems to be 7+. So if you play anything at all, I think you probably score 7. So then you are only really worrying about another 6 marks in order to pass the scales section. Looked at in this light, it puts scales in proportion.

Musical parents who "don't believe in scales" - what planet are they on? How very irritating.

Don't get me started! I have a student (a 15 year old boy) who has never been able to play scales, and it's just because he can't be bothered to put in the work needed. He got by with them in Grade 1, but really struggled with Grade 2, getting a fail mark for scales on the day. I told him at every lesson that he'd got to get down to learning them, with very little result , and before the exam I told him that I'd never sent anyone into an exam not knowing their scales before, but he still didn't learn them. Having deliberately waited for 2 years in between Grade 2 and 3, and making sure both he and his parents understood why, I'm now having the same situation with his Grade 3 scales. We decided to wait until the autumn because he's been doing GCSEs and to give him more time to learn his scales. At his lesson this week, I asked him to play C major (thinking I'd give him a gentle start) and he couldn't even play that with the correct fingering. I'm so frustrated by his attitude!

Yes, a lot of my pupils struggle with scales - so I do sympathise. Some of it's down to laziness I know, a lot of them who know the notes use random fingerings then get in a mess. I'd love to know how to push the standard up, any tips wd be welcome!

I've used the 'Get Ready for Major Scale Duets' published by FJH which are a fun way to learn scales.
The accompaniments are in a range of styles so vary according to which scale is being played.

There are others in the Get Ready series - one octave scales, minor scales and pentascales as well.
If the pupil struggles to remember the patterns, then they might not be useful but they can make scale
learning more fun.


Louise

I'm assuming that's the first five notes of the scale, as distinct from an actual pentatonic scale?

I'm good at scales, I mean really very good at scales, most types of scales including obscure jazz scales, in any key. When we do scales exercises in our jazz class I get set some kind of pattern in quavers or triplets while everyone else is playing the straight scale in crotchets so it's not too easy for me.

On a course I was on over Easter they asked for a volunteer to play Bb harmonic minor, that's easy I think, and put my hand up. Only to screw it up in an inconceivable manner. None of my regular playing partners could quite believe it. It was yet another lesson for me that playing well in class doesn't necessarily translate to playing well when it counts.

Yes - it's the first 5 notes of a scale. In fact, with the pentascale duets, the first half of the duet is major and the second half is minor - so from an aural point of view, these help the pupil learn the difference between the sound of major/minor as well. They only have to learn that the 3rd note changes in the second half.

I use them (the pentascales) as finger exercises and the duet part makes it more fun as well has having other musicianship benefits - rhythm, ensemble. I teach them initially by rote rather than from the music so the pupil learns the pattern - I do this with octave/2 octaves scales as well though.


Louise

I'm just wondering why they call them 'pentascales' - could potentially be confusing - I'm used to referring to 'pentatonic' and 'pentachordal'.

Yup it seems to be a silly americanism for 5 finger hand position in X major/minor whatever...... I came across it in Faber and Faber Piano Adventures first....... the phrase really bugs me......... I'm sure it was never used when I was learning.......

Hmmm, yes - pentatonic and pentachordal are certainly accepted terms, whereas 'pentascales' does seem to be a bit of a 'pop term'...

I agree that the name is confusing - I rarely call them 'pentascales' to my pupils. I rather boringly call them a '5 finger exercise' or 'stairs' exercise - unless I or one my pupils can come up with a more exciting name.

I fear that this doesn't really help the OP with their pupil learning to remember the scale patterns though.


Louise

Yes, it seems to be a 'coined' name.

I sometimes do 'five-note scales' with my near-beginner pupils - I find it's a useful part of early key-familiarity, and a helpful hands-together exercise at the stage before they can properly do a complete scale octave with both hands - but I haven't normally mixed major and minor in the same one

At least she went up first and then down


My son is due to take his Grade 5 tomorrow and I told him about this. He's not too bad at scales (fingers crossed) and I think this made him feel a whole lot better, so thank you!

My son is due to take his Grade 5 tomorrow and I told him about this. He's not too bad at scales (fingers crossed) and I think this made him feel a whole lot better, so thank you!
[/quote]

Good luck with tomorrow.
Dora

Is it a requirement at grade 5 to play scales this way?

[quote name='Dora' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:53 AM' post='840337']
My son is due to take his Grade 5 tomorrow and I told him about this. He's not too bad at scales (fingers crossed) and I think this made him feel a whole lot better, so thank you!
[/quote]

Good luck with tomorrow.
Dora
[/quote]

Thank you Dora.

[quote name='Halka' date='Jun 22 2009, 02:01 PM' post='840398']
[quote name='Crotchetymum' post='840303' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:04 AM']

My son is due to take his Grade 5 tomorrow and I told him about this. He's not too bad at scales (fingers crossed)
[/quote]

Is it a requirement at grade 5 to play scales this way?
[/quote]

I got 3 out of 15 for scales in my LCM grade 2 , in about 1956 , still passed with 1st Class (= ABRSM merit) though. (I remember I played the first bit of Beethoven Sonatina in G).

Liszt apparently recommended 2 hours a day of scales - and thought scales in octaves were especially good for you once you were past the beginner stage.

Oh crumbs! I'd rather spend 2 hours a day learning the repertoire....

No ... that is what you do with your other 8 hours of practice time !

But of course!

The mind boggles!!

As someone who both hates scales and can't see much point in learning them off by heart - never mind: they really aren't the be-all and end-all of music making. Sure, it gives facility in playing and thinking in keys, but at the end of the day we learn music which doesn't turn at the octave: we read from music which twists and turns, requiring different fingerings from standard scale ones. I'd have slightly more patience with the idea of learning them from the music, perhaps, so associating the patterns fingers need to make with the dots on the page, but I don't buy the idea that they're so important. (and since I don't practise two hours a day, I'm most certainly not going to sink all of whatever time I can grab to practise on scales ).

I failed my scales at grade 7, but got a distinction overall. Sure, it was a scraped one, but it still counts. After that, I moved to a board which recognises that different musicians have different talents, and exploited the ones I do have: I'd spent/wasted hours trying to memorise the grade 7 ones and they didn't do anything for my playing which the repertoire itself couldn't do more efficiently.

I am a parent (non-musical) who is, also, a bit doubtful about the value of scales.

My daughter is very good at scales (clarinet, cello, piano) and generally gets full, or near full marks for them in exams. She is also a very good sight reader. Her clarinet teacher says this is down to her excellent knowledge of scales. However, daughter refuses to learn any recorder scales, and can avoid them as her teacher uses TG exams. Nevertheless, she is a good sightreader on recorder too; in her last exam the examiner commented on her "fine reading".

So, why would she benefit from getting her recorder scales up to the same standard as those on her other instruments? I keep threatening her with the Associated Board scale book, and she has a birthday coming up soon!

I've seen more posts from recorder players complaining about how difficult scales are to memorise than from any other group of instrumentalists....even a flautist has said she felt they were harder on the recorder. Despite being a complete and utter flop at memorising the blighters, this doesn't seem to have stopped me moving on through grade 8 and ATCL to LTCL, which is why I'll continue to hold to my position for the time being. Who knows, I may have to change my mind if/when I can afford that much-wanted voice flute . So why not let her go on doing Trinity? - they'll still prove she's a musician .

PS I'm a sightreader too, so I'm not sure it can necessarily be down to knowing the scales...

Hem, hem. Think I'm the flautist in question. They are a large degree of difficulty harder on the recorder, especially to someone to whom an F instrument will always be a second language.

I have just switched my Grade 8 recorder pupil to one of the TG alternative exercises. She's done scales up until now, but she's doing the double tonguing study for Grade 8 which is a great improvement. She's played every scale she's likely to need on the recorder (and some!) so I'm happy with her taking a break.

Oh, I didn't intend to try to stop her doing Trinity. Just wondered if there was a good reason to coerce her into a few scales as well!

Not a teacher but...

I would say that improvising is a lot easier if you're familar with your scales. I guess if you're happy with chords (which I'm not) its less of an issue; but I find a solid knowledge of scales and appeggions substitutes for knowing chords quite well. At least, when someone announces we're playing in G minor I know which notes to stick with, which ones not to linger on, and which ones to definitely avoid. Is this as easy if you don't know which notes feature where in the scale?

I would argue that someone can be VERY familiar with G minor (or mixolydian or pentatonic come to that) and still find playing them on a recorder difficult and not terribly useful.

Although G minor is possibly one of the more useful ones.

The only place I've ever seen obscure keys in recorder music is in the exam sight reading book. I tried to find more music to practise sight reading Db major, F# major, G# minor etc, but literally could find none.

You are indeed - I just didn't want to quote you if I'd mistaken the issue .

I do think facility within a scale is useful - just not sitting memorising the blighters .

I can play scales in the sense of moving my fingers appropriately with dots in front of me. But I cannot connect the note names to the fingerings without tying myself in knots, so I had to disengage my brain which is always risky.

I was just musing on my statement that F instruments were a second language, because I played treble recorder to around Grade 5 or 6 standard before I ever touched a flute (although I started on descant). It's more that F instruments are the language I use when I go back home, but I work and live abroad in C land.

I'd learned the descant and the oboe before the treble - so although now I'm F dominant, I recognise your dilemma only too well .

Tis funny, I learnt the descant and treble long before I touched a flute, and for a long time would play my flute music on the treble recorder to get the rhythms in place before I tackled it on the less familiar instrument. I'm not sure when my flute playing overtook my familiarity on the recorder, but I'm equally comfortable with all three sets of fingerings (though not on the upper notes of the recorder, which sound dreadful when I play them anyway).

I can empathise though, I'm currently trying to master a fife someone bought me with a whole new set of patterns as well as (loosely) D becoming C, E becoming D and so on. For some reason this is frying my brain a whole lot more than when I first learnt treble fingerings! I think its worth persisting with though, as then I'll be able to transpose another interval by just pretending I'm playing a different instrument.

I do think scales help with improvisation, but can well believe that other skills can make up for it. My aural skills and knowledge of chords are lousy, so I guess I have to rely on scales. I don't recall much of recorder music in very standard keys requiring much improv (excepting of course all the interpretation, but that's slightly different ). Also, I never learnt scales on the recorder, but am well aware that the cross fingerings (and hence scales) are a lot nastier than those on the flute!

I'm perfectly ok translating the dots to fingerings on the treble, but struggle to name the notes! The really odd thing is that I find I can't name them off the score unless I shake my brain up a bit. Even though they are exactly the same notes I would have no trouble naming on a flute.

The problem with scales specifically is the memory one. I can play scales from memory absolutely fine on the flute or piano. But the confusion over the letter names interferes with the recorder ones. I would be fine playing them on a descant or tenor. I don't think improv would be a problem were I ever to need it on a recorder, as I would be thinking in terms of a set of fingerings rather than note names. As long as I get the starting note for a key correct I would then just switch into those fingerings. And, although I picked up the G minor example earlier, it's only the remote keys that cause problems. So all-in-all, a rather unlikely scenario.

Anyone who plays the clarinet is used to the F/C dilemma - as the chalumeau register has F as the RH little finger note (if you use that key) and the clarion register has the same fingering (plus register key) to produce C.

Sort of like two recorders in one! I should be good at the treble recorder now but can't blow softly enough!

Just an update:

Girl with worst scales ever heard has got her result - 10 for scales !!! Not brilliant but frankly slightly generous all things considered.

(P.S. She got merit/distinction marks for all her pieces but failed the sight-reading and scraped the aural - as she and her parents say : it's only the pieces that count ! I try to counterbalance this view but it's hard . . . . ).

Anyway, she passed overall so here's to onwards and upwards.

Glad your pupil passed D@P - I wonder whether it would be worth putting together a hypothetical mark list based on what might have happened if she had scored, say, an average pass in her scales and other 'unimportant' sections. Could it be useful to show the parents - or would they not be interested I wonder?

Thanks Maggiemay.

Yes, I'll definitely make the point but the mother delegates all musical decisions to the father and the father is often absent and has VERY set views (which very rarely coincide with mine).

I think my main line of attack will be the girl herself - after all, she's coming up for 11 so she's old enough to understand . . . .