Could someone give me some advice about buying a second hand flute please!!!

My daughter started to learn the flute in November last year and a friend of hers kindly lent her old flute to her. According to my daughter's flute teacher, she could take ABRSM grade 5 this summer if she wanted to and her current flute is not the easiest to play at all. So I've started to research on second hand flute.

I was told Yamaha is good to get and apart from that, I don't have any idea at all.
Even Yamaha 211 seems to have different models (211s, 211uk etc...) and I'm totally confused.
I'd also like to know what sort of questions I should ask concerning the conditions of the flute.

Please help me.

Buying second hand is a bit of a minefield, even for an experienced player. The safest option, although not necessarily the cheapest, is to buy a second hand instrument from one of the main flute retailers: Topwind, JustFlutes or AllFlutesPlus. JustFlutes requires all owners to get their flute inspected and if necessary repaired/serviced in their workshop before they are listed and AllFlutesPlus gives an indication of the instrument's condition on their website, so you have another opinion about the flute's condition.

If you are some distance from London you may wish to find out if your local music shop sells second hand instruments, although these may not have been examined by a flute specialist. Alternatively your daughter's teacher may know of a pupil who is upgrading and selling her instrument.

Yamaha 211 S models and UK models will both be fine (the UK ones are more recent). Other models beginning with 2 will have slightly different specifications and you would need to check with the teacher whether these would be suitable.

Good luck!

You need to take your daughter somewhere to try out different flutes. Don't just buy one without trying it and others. Different flutes play differently (related to things like embouchure hole shape and cut, crown weight, riser, metal thickness) and therefore different players suit different flutes. Yes, Yamaha does good entry level flutes (and the 311 is a decent upgrade instrument) but they don't suit everybody. I know quite a few people - including myself - who don't get on particularly well with Yamaha flutes, and others who wouldn't want to play anything else.

If you're looking on the second hand market then you ideally need to go to one of the specialist flute shops, because that way you can be confident in what you're buying. General music shops tend to be less reliable. If you can't get to a specialist flute place then it's best to take someone with you who understands flutes. Either way, make sure you get the instrument on approval for at least a week (if the instrument's just been serviced then this can hide problems with the mechanism, which would then gradually appear as the instrument gets played more) and get the flute checked by her teacher before you agree to buy it.

One thing to consider is whether you want, at this point, to buy her a better flute. It might be worthwhile going straight for an 'upgrade' or 'step up' instrument with a silver lip plate, headjoint or tube, such as a Yamaha 311, Pearl 665 or 765, Trevor James Cantible or Virtuoso, Azumi 2000, or a student flute with a professionally made solid silver headjoint. Flutes in this range can easily take her beyond grade 8, whereas if you buy a student instrument you will probably need to upgrade it when she's around grade 6-7 standard (which may only be a year or so away, especially if she's grade 5 standard now after 6 months of playing).

Whereabouts are you?

My partner and I run a workshop servicing, refurbishing and retailing flutes and clarinets. Our website is in my signature, though we have more instruments than the ones on there. You are most welcome to come over and have a chat with us at any time!

I agree with what has been said so far.

Flossie - I get on with Yamahas really well, yet I've had customers who don't at all - buying a flute is such a personal choice. We have an Altus 1007 coming in very soon and I can't wait to try it!

Try lots and you'll find the right instrument for you

Would second a_i_c's recommendation of Myalls/JustFlutes

...and I will third it!

Second-Hand-Bag x

What is your budget?

Liz

As a family we have bought a few secondhand instruments over the years. All have turned out really great - our daughter took her violin up to grade 7, son his clarinet up to grade 7 before they went to uni. My wife plays in a pipe band (oh no I've let that cat of the bag!) and I'm just learning..
Our experience for what it's worth:
Daughter's violin - her teacher borrowed a selection from a local dealer and they both tried them out before deciding on one.
Son's clarinet - bought new when local store had a very good offer on (may have been a demonstration model).
Son's sax - after trying his teacher's and with us being guided every step of the way, we bid for a Yamaha on Ebay. The instrument had barely been played and our 'advisor' pronounced it to be worth double what we paid.
Wife's pipes - a lot of research, a lot of watching and waiting and eventually bid for a set on Ebay. They are a reputable make and perform extremely well (and loudly!!)
My clarinet - a beautiful Hanson T5 bought on Ebay after a lot of research and including a bit of advice from Alastair Hanson himself. Alastair has since looked it over for me and pronounced it a 'very good buy' - one day I hope to get good enough to do it justice.
You'll notice a trend here and many will be horrified - but if you are prepared to accept the risk and research carefully there are bargains to be had on Ebay.. maybe we've just been very lucky.
All that said without a doubt the best is to try before you buy - the ideal was the way we got our daughter's violin.
Ian
Whatever you do don't rush into it - and get the best advice you can!

Thank you for your advice.

I thought 211 S, UK etc are pretty much similar , just different model names for updating the same model.
I suppose if you don't know what you are looking at, the safest thing would be to go to the specialist shop.




Thanks for all the information.

I did wonder about better (more expensive) models than Yamaha 211 sereies.
I was looking at eBay yesterday and someome was selling his/her 211. He/she described it as suitable for beginner up to Grade 5, which my daughter seems to have achieved already.




We live in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire.


At the moment, I don't have a clear idea. We upgraded her cello recently and are thinking of selling her old one. Hopefully we could get around ?250, so out budget would be around the figure. Would we be able to get a decent second hand flute?

I would disagree ever so slightly with this I did my grade 8 on a Yamaha 211, and would no doubt still be playing it had it not been stolen in the last year of my music degree. When I started work I bought a Yamaha 311; that was twenty-something years ago and I play it regularly

I did grade 8 on a battered old Emperor - the examiner is not marking the instrument!

OP - I know of a good used flute for less than your budget. It isn't a Yamaha though so if you are set on a yamaha you won't be interested. If you are interested send me a PM

Liz

If your daughter is still at school then you should be able to buy on assisted purchase if you go for a new instrument. That will give you a saving of 20%.

We went down the Yamaha route on advice from a teacher. It never really suited our daughter but we got as much as we paid when we traded in a year ago. I would echo what everyone else has said and try to find some that your daughter can play to get a feel of which one might be right for her. Even if you try new ones it doesn't mean you can't buy a similar model secondhand.

I still like the idea of Yamaha 211. 311 looks nice, but is rather expensive. Also I know that Yamaha 211 would be a huge improvement from what she's using at the moment anyway.


I don't know anything about flute and only decent make I know is Yamaha. Also my daughters' cello teacher's wife who teaches flute said Yamaha is good.

While there is a lot of good advice on this thread, I would observe that you shouldn't feel guilty if you can't justify spending the ?800+ for an 'upgrade' flute, or the time/expense of a trip to a shiny London shop. At the end of the day, most young flautists don't have parents with lots of time, money, interest or knowledge to buy the 'perfect' flute for the pupil. By asking questions on this forum, you're already much further along than most parents!

Obviously playing as many flutes as possible and picking a favourite is the ideal, but I selected my upgrade flute from a choice of 2. I've played other 'nice' flutes since, which has confirmed that the one I ended up with (one of the older Yamaha models, equivalent to a 311) suits me well enough. Maybe I was just lucky though.

Another nice thing about Yamahas is that they do tend to be indestructable (as flutes go), which is definitely an advantage when its getting lugged about all over the place and exposed to other children/teenagers. Mine has never been serviced in its 7 or 8 years of life, and still isn't showing any major issues.

One thing I would add is to make sure you involve your daughter in the decision as far as possible. I was G5 and about 13/14 when I selected my 'upgrade' flute - she'll know from playing them what feels right and which ones feel less suitable. If she declares that a Yamaha is unplayable, you may well have to think again!

Thank you very much for your advice.

It would be great if we could take her to a nice music shop and let her choose what she likes from the selection of instruments. I don't know anything about flute, but do know good instrument would help enormously.

I am leaning more towards Yamaha, but as you said if Yamaha isn't the one for her, that's fine. We look for somethig else as long as we can afford.

Thanks again.

Yamahas are excellent instruments. I really highly recommend a 211 with your budget. If or when you upgrade the 211 is a great instrument with a lovely mechanism. The body is just as the 311 so you can just upgrade to a solid silver headjoint.

If you'd like to try a few different flutes, your local music shop may not be the place to go to, you may be lucky though It's a pity you're so far away if you were closer, I would have said come over for a chat and a coffee and try a few instruments.

If there are any (think they're quite new on the market so less likely to have second hand availability) Azumi flutes seem to be perceived as good value. They're owned by Altus (the 2000 series and up have Altus headjoints). Pearl and Trevor James also do decent student flutes (as mentioned above).

Whatever you get, if you get something with a good reliable mechanism, the next upgrade could well be no more than a headjoint.

Pearl do some lovely flutes in my opinion. I've no experience of Azumi, if they are anything like the lovely Altus 1007 I have at the moment then they are absolutely worth trying. I think Altus make very fine and lovely flutes!

Trevor James is a good make but personally I don't get on with them, each to their own! Don't be put off by that though - everyone has "their" flute

Thank you for all the replies to my question.

Although I'm leaning towards Yamaha, I'm open minded. If we could find decent second hand Pearl or other make, we would be happy.

I was looking at eBay yesterday, not to buy, just to get some idea.
There was a Yamaha 311 going quite cheap. I'm not too sure how much it went in the end, but there was several minutes left and the highest bid was about ?70. The 311 looked quite old and there was some bubbles outside. I wondered if that is significant or not.

Still we need to sell my daughter's cello first to get funding to buy her flute.

I heard that a flute has a long life. Is an old flute, which was used for a year or so many years ago and was serviced recently, good one to consider? According to the ad, it was serviced around Christmas time; tenons trued,pads reset,.action oiled,regulated and tested.

I'd be grateful if someone could give me some advice.

Flutes deteriorate with age and with playing. In particular, the mechanism tends to wear out. If the mechanism is poor then a service will temporarily solve the problems - but only for a while. You need to find out more about the flute, and you need to get it checked by someone who understands flutes and knows what to look for. An 'old' flute that hasn't been played much can sometimes be better than a newer one that's been played 10 hours a day and had its mechanism trashed, but only if it was built well in the first place. I'd be a little bit wary about the fact that the flute has required work on the tenons as this can be a sign of a dodgy mechanism - but the only way of finding out is to have it checked by an expert (old flutes which have been properly overhauled by someone who really knows what they're doing can play very well).

I see. The old flute I was talking about is Yamaha YFL 21S. So sorry to be ignorant, but I don't even know what tenons are!! But as you say it can be a sign of a dodgy mechanism, I'll stay clear out of it then.
Thanks for your advice.

Oh, dose anybody know anything about Pearl pf501? Someone is selling it and it looks in good condition.

I started out on a Yamaha 211N which is the less good version (it's nickel plated). It was second hand at the time and it's in extremely bad condition now ... well, not extremely bad, but it's very worn. We're thinking of selling it - as soon as we've sorted out the dodgy keys! That flute got me through Grade 2 and Grade 3 but was a bit too dodgy on some notes to last (probably because it's ancient).

My second flute was a Pearl, although I can't remember the number (sorry!). It cost ?330 new. I then left it on a bus, but got another one from insurance of the same type. That one has got me through Grades 4, 5, 6 and now will maybe take me through Grade 7. However I'm thinking of buying a new flute which I would then use for my exam this summer.

I'm hoping to get an open holed flute that's good enough to last me beyond Grade 8 ... but I don't have a clue what I'm going for

Hope this helps ... I reckon I left it a bit too late to contribute properly to this thread anyway.

It's good to know what other people have been using and what sort of grades they've done with them, etc.
Gives me more idea.

I realised that there are closed hole and open hole. (Flute is a completely new teritory to me) I suppose you have to put your fingers on right position to play on a open holed flute, so it would not be suitable for my daughter who's been playing only for 5 months.

Thaks for posting anyway.

I've no idea where you live but Woodwind Exchange in Bradford have loads of new and second hand instruments.

My daughter started on a student Jupiter used it for Grades 1-4 having played for only just over a year. Grades 5 and 6 were taken on a Yamaha 311 closed hole. Last year we upgraded when it was clear she was not really getting on with the 311. We bought a Pearl PF-695 B foot with open holes. I was sceptical about open hole but they have never been an issue for daughter.

I would say that whichever Flute you buy now it may not be the one your daughters ideal Flute, as she has been playing only a short time.

Sadly we live in Buckinghamshire, so it's rather far from Bradford. (We lived in Sheffied many years ago and my daughter was born there!)

I do realise that whichever flute we buy for her won't be her ideal flute. I just want to get something decent, so she could enjoy playing more. She does enjoy practising now, but it's kind of struggle sometimes because she's using her friend's old flute which isn't the easiest to play, according to her flute teacher. She's doing well though. Her teacher said she's reached Grade 5 level now.
I'm torn between Pearl and Yamaha 211 at the moment. Azumi looks nice as well, but there aren't many second hand around, so may be hard to find, and also it seems rather expensive!

Thanks for posting.

It is worth remembering that a good flute holds its value better than a cheaper one, and that it is likely to stay in adjustment better, leading to lower maintenance costs. If you can scrape together a larger budget now it will almost certainly save you money in the long run.

Sound advice from andante-in-c. When we traded in the Yamaha we got nearly as much as we paid for it as our initial purchase was without VAT and instruments have increased in value quite a lot.

Daughter still doesn't have her dream FLute one of the top of the range Muramatsus

Pearls and Yamahas are both decent flutes, but it also seems that both divide opinion. For some reason, with these two brands, there seems to be a tendancy (in my experience) for those who get on well with one to hate the other. This doesn't make either 'bad' - they are just rather different flutes. I personally get on well with Pearls (I played one for years before upgrading again a couple of years ago) and don't get on well with Yamahas. At the same time, I knew some Yamaha lovers who absolutely hated playing my Pearl. The only way for you to decide between the two is for your daughter to play them both and see whether she likes them.

I don't know your part of the country very well, but is Bedfordshire anywhere near Hitchin or Cambridge? I know people who have used John Myatt's in Hitchin and Wood Wind and Reed in Cambridge for flutes. Both shops would be happy for you to try lots of flutes (you can try withour buying...) and they both sell second hand ones as well. If not, you've already been given good suggestions for London shops.

Thank you for your advice, andante in c, notmusimum and flossie.

I'll consider my options carefully and choose a flute for my daughter.
I'm really grateful for everybody who posted their replies.
At the moment I'm tempted by Pearl. I'll try to get a decent Yamaha or Pearl within my budget for now and later on when she gets to the level which requires a better flute, then think about upgrading to silver head joint and maybe open hole.

With open holed flutes, they're more versatile as you can put the 'plugs' in when you're just starting, so they can serve as a closed-hole flute, and then when you're better you can take the plugs out. This means that even if you're not ready for an open-holed flute, you don't have to upgrade again to have one.

I see. So an open holed flute can serve as a closed hole one.
I was looking at Pearl PF-661.
I wonder if it's technical to put the "plugs" in.

You need more advice from andante_in_c as I think the Flute sound changes when they are open holes with plugs. I don't think they are meant to be used for any length of time as closed hole flutes. I'm no expert but I seem to remember being given advice about open holes when we were looking to upgrade post Grade 4. We decided not to go down that route particularly as daughter was only 11 at the time. When she did eventually try an open hole Flute, at 15, she had no problems with it at all. I considered buying plugs but decided not to in the end.

I'm not really sure that open holes are a must and they certainly weren't needed up to and including grade 6.

Yes, I would agree with all notmusimum has said here. I wouldn't advise going down the open holed route at this stage, and plugs should only be regarded as a very temporary measure.

Not to mention the fact that not everyone can play them, full stop. I have perculiarly short third and fourth fingers relative to the rest of my hands (which are small to start with). If it was possible, I'd have an offset D to go with the offset G, and not put so much strain on my right hand. As it is, I manage okay with a closed hole flute, but most certainly could not wriggle that finger around to cover the 'D' hole properly on an open holed flute... I have enough trouble while playing a tenor recorder and slightly larger penny whistles!

I have a theory that the only significant advantage of an open hole flute is that you can actually tell you're playing something when sat in an orchestra, being drowned out by all the brass: Because you can feel the air moving under your fingers.

Phew! My memory isn't as bad as I suspected. That was from advice I think you gave me about 4-5 years ago

Thanks for all the advice.

The open hole flute I was looking at is Pearl PF-661 and the closed hole one is Pearl PF 501E.
Both seems to be in good condition. The 661 has a silver head joint, which is , I thought, attractive.

My daughter is 17 and has rather large hands and long (& slender) fingers.
She's been playing the cello for nearly 7 years and the flute for about 5 months.
According to her flute teacher, she has reached Grade 5 level. At the moment she is playing mixture of Grade 5 & 6 repertoire
I don't think she ever had a go on a open hole flute. She did say that she'd used her teacher's flute which was really nice. No idea if that was open hole or not.
Should I concentrate on closed hole flute?

kharris you have Bagmail

Bx

Often open holed flutes come with plugs

I think if she's got long figures it might be a good idea, especially since she'll probably advance pretty rapidly. However if there's anyway you can try out the two flutes you just need to go with the one she likes playing, because some people might hate Pearls or whatever (I love them but my teacher hates them).

As has already been said above, open hole flutes might come with bungs, but these don't offer a long-term solution because they change how the flute plays. Putting the bungs in alters how the column of air moves through the flute, and this affects both the sound and tuning.

I honestly think flautists get far too hung up about open holes - having an open/closed hole flute really doesn't change how good you are as a player or how far you are capable of going with your playing. The whole status thing where some people seem to think that they are better than others because they have an open hole flute is, frankly, misguided. There are many, many professional players who play closed hole flutes, and it doesn't make them 'worse' as players. I play an open holed flute, but that is because I prefer how the instrument feels - it doesn't make a jot of difference to my actual ability.

kharris - if your daughter is comfortable playing an open hole flute *without* bungs and prefers how the flute sounds and plays, then fine. If she needs the bungs then I honestly think she is better going for a closed hole model. Having a closed hole model will not hold her back, but having a flute which doesn't suit her can do. In general, those people who buy an open holed flute to play with bungs thinking "once I get used to it and correct my fingers then I'll take the bungs out" tend to still have the bungs in years later.

Please take your daughter to try flutes rather than just buying what you think sounds best on paper. You can try flutes out somewhere without making any commitment to buy one of them and find out which flutes suit your daughter best. Then if you are concerned about the cost (which I can entirely understand) you can look for what she wants on the second hand market.

Thanks for posting.

I see. It sounds like open hole vs. closed hole is personal preference. Am I right?
I'll try to take my daughter somewhere she can try out some flute to see how she gets on with them.
We'll definitely go for a second hand one, due to the limited budget.

I'm a clarinettist, not a flautist but I'm sure the same is relevant......Is her teacher able/willing to help with advice and/or going along to help in the choice?
I find that my teacher's input is invaluable when it comes to choosing a new instrument or mouthpiece. The teacher will be likely to know how to go about giving an instrument a good trial and the pair of experienced ears is useful too.

Yes, I'm thinking about asking her teacher and her cello teacher's wife, who happens to be a flute teacher.
I did have a quick word with her (cello teacher's wife) a few months ago, and she did say if we could afford Yamaha it would be good. Then, I didn't know what I know now, so I just asked her if Yamaha is good. Anyway, I'll keep researching into this matter.

Thank you.

flute vary so much from person to person my advice is to let your daughter try a few as she already has playing experience. what does play now??

maybe got to a music shop try lots of makes and models of flutes and then you know what to buy 2nd hand I do not think you will get a decent flute for your budget and maybe its worth spending a little more to get one which will last longer (just a thought)

someone mentioned Azumis ( they have altus ) head and sound really nice, Pearls are also nice instruments then there are trevour james step up flutes such as the cantibile. As said previously Yamaha dont suit everyone I personally dont get on with them.

Altus are fab but Im afraid they are in a different price bracket all together and they are still expensive second hand but iMO well worth the money