We're trying to decide whether to make the push and put DS in for G5 this July. The exam entry deadline is 6th June and he only has one more lesson with Teach before then. Exams are w/c 18 July so about 9 weeks away. Teach told him today that he has a lot to learn and should wait a term, despite also saying that 2 G5 pieces are already very good. But Teach said exactly the same about the G4 and 2 weeks later said DS should be OK to take it (he got a Distinction).

As the Mum in all this, I look at DS' whole schedule. We're planning for him to apply for the NCO, so an audition in the autumn may be on the cards. Plus Teach wants him to do G5 theory this year. Also DS will also be sitting School Entrance exams around Christmas. Obviously this will be very stressful and could affect his result in the G5. But on the other hand I'm worried that if he took it in July and didn't do as well as he's used to then he may be disappointed.

Anyway, my main question at the moment is - does the result at G5 have a major impact on future opportunities?

I can feel a headache coming on ..... MNW's Pimms is sounding better by the day!

How did you get 18th July - ours is 20th June. Can I transfer to your examiner? I am being serious!!!

As for grade 5, well I suppose it depends on the age of the child at the time. If DS guzzes then he could do it again a year later and get a distinction and still only be 11. Of course a distinction would be marvellous (pigs will fly) but in some ways if DS gets grade 5 then other aspects such as theory cannot be ignored and he may be allowed (if time ever allows) to join ensembles and groups with grade 5. Next exam I will make sure he is distinction level. DS goal is currently to play Mozart Concerto in B-flat major for bassoon, which does look very easy.

The result at grade 5 is only of an importance for as long as that's the highest grade he's done.
It depends on how you all want to use the exams. There can be many different reasons for doing or not doing exams and for the timing of them.

Our Music Trust runs the exams during the last week of each term. Last July DS had his G2 exam on the last morning of Year 4, he wasn't very happy about it as all the 'fun activities' were going on at school. We don't find out which day of the week he'd do the exam until the Trust Administrator allocates all the slots!

We were wondering whether to suggest he do an ABRSM exam session in the autumn raher than the Trust one (whenever our local one is - would have to look into that), so that he'd get it over with without everything clashing. Is that how your DS does his exams?

We always seem to have this problem!!! Maybe rushing through G5 might not be such a good idea though!! Teach originally wanted DS to get G5 by the end of Year 6, and he's just approaching end of Year 5. Other worry (there are SO many! ) is that DS will be SO fed up of playing G5 stuff by the end of the year that he'd fluff it anyway!

Would he really be expected to keep on playing the pieces between now and November if they are pretty well ready by July?
My experience would be to play lots of other things until nearer the time then revise the exam pieces.

Same here - Daughter learned a couple of Grade 5 piano pieces - then did other stuff because she wanted to sneak in Grade 4 violin last term - and went back to the Grade 5 syllabus a few weeks ago. She did tend to play Flood Time a lot in the interim though! I now completely loathe that piece - but she's not bored of it.

I found that ABRSM exam session C clashed with pretty much everything (11 plus things, heavy snow ..) so if I were in your shoes I might be tempted to go for Grade 6 in Session A 2012 (since teacher expects him to be able to get Grade 5 theory under his belt this year) If he wants to feel he's ticked all the boxes (I remember this being an issue for him in the past) you could do him a mock Grade 5 exam early in the autumn term.

Or you could just do Grade 5 now and not worry about it. He may get a lower mark than he's used to (although I'd not bet on it ) but it may do him good in the long run to realise that not every exam is going to get a distinction result (whether music or otherwise.)

Just waffling really - no good advice. Whatever you decide you've still got a wonderfully talented, hard working little boy - which is brilliant. (a platitude - but true. )

It all depends on what is the purpose I think. People have different reasons for doing exams - some children (my daughter included when it comes to the piano) can't get motivated without them, some people need to be at a certain level for a scholarship exam, for some it's an important personal milestone. For some the marks matter, for some it's just something that needs to be done.

Having done the cramming for grade 5 violin, because we thought it would be helpful for music scholarships (we then found out it was the level of playing that mattered more than the grade of attainment - after all, not all children do ABRSM exams, and also true for the NCO), we've slowed down. My daughter wouldn't want to do an exam again that she wasn't ready for. I wouldn't send her in to do a maths or english exam without the necessary preparation, and we apply the same principle to music exams. Too much stress for everyone, that frantic scale learning! But children are different, and some just rise to the challenge!

We've been in situations with lots of things clashing and I can really see your position. I think in your situation I'd opt for the G5 at summer. Your son obviously has a lot of skills already in place with two secure pieces it shouldn't be that difficult to work the other piece up in that time scale. Given he has already taken G4 and got a distinction it should be doable.

Daughter is supposed to take G8 Flute in that week and believe me it's a long way off being ready. With GCSE exams in the middle of it all we are hoping she can manage a pass As it's not her main instrument and there are lots of reasons why she should take this term we are going to happily settle for that.

Thanks for all your comments. It's always helpful to hear others thoughts.

I decided to check when exact dates of the entrance exams are and it turns out that the school he really wants to get into has been brought forward their exam until mid November. The 2 local Indies are the first week of January. This does make the G5 do-able in December. But we do have the dilemma of him getting very bored with playing the G5 pieces for so long. I do kind of wonder whether Teach is kind of testing to see if he'll be ready in July by how quickly he can play to a fair standard (which has happened before).

Also checked the ABRSM C session exams and it turns out that we could actually be assigned one the week before our Trust exam week. So it wouldn't really be worth going through the hassle of traveling to a strange exam centre, different accompanist etc for the sake of a few days!

DS, DH and I have agreed that we will see how well his practices go before next week's lesson. Night before the lesson, I will contact Teach, tell him our worries/dilemma and see what he says. If he thinks G5 won't be possible, then we'd want DS to be playing things other than the G5 pieces. He may agree to do an extra private lesson in half term, and decide then as the deadline is first Monday back at school.

I think you know that DS is highly motivated by the exam process and does want to get all the certificates. He's also getting very used to the high marks, so, as you say TDM, it could be a good lesson if he didn't do so well, and he realises that the world doesn't stop.

Now we have the worry that he has about 7 weeks less to prepare for his school exam! And I'd got it all planned that he could do an Indie exam as preparation for the Tiffin one!!!

It isn't a hugely difficult piece; I did the slow movement for my G5 and the last movement in a competition the year I left school. The 1st movement is a G8 piece I think, but technically it is not the most demanding work I've attempted, by a long way.

Will you be accompanying him on the piano?

(I could bring my flute and play the pink panther)

Hey never mind all these forum concerts, we need a forum Mums' Night Out on the Pimms!

I'll second that!

After a bit of a stroppy practise yesterday (DS DID tell me when he started that he wasn't in a good mood and that if I said the wrong thing he may shout at me - didn't bode well - I always say something wrong! ) I'm worrying even more about this decision.

Another thing occurred to us - he's used to Alto clef but the G5 pieces have Treble clef in this time too. Could the G5 exam sight-reading be in Treble clef?!!! If so, that is definitely something he needs to be sure of before the exam!

There will definitely be treble clef. It may well be that he won't be ready for the exam because of this. That i one of the reasons I am concerned about sight-reading as DS has been learning the tenor clef for 3 months now and it aint perfect.



Maybe he's playing a different one because the first movement (principal bassoon) is ridiculously easy.

I advise that you check - I really didn't think you had to sight read treble clef on the viola until Grade 6.(Used to 'teen-sit' a Viola player.)
I went out for Pimms yesterday and thought of you both (MNW and VM )

MNW, VM, TDM - what disease do you have?!

note to self: STOP POSTING, STOP POSTING, STOP POSTING

In my recent grade 4 viola exam I played a piece that changed to treble clef midway through then changed back... I then got sightreading with a change to treble clef in it!! Don't know whether the examiner was seeing what I could do (he knew I'm a violin and piano teacher) but it WAS labelled as grade 4... And in the practice sightreading test book I had it had changes to treble clef from grade 5 examples onwards, although it was an old book...


EDIT you are correct - just checked the syllabus and it only mentions treble clef from grade 6 onwards for sightreading - so you can relax violamum"""

I there a word for being biased against an instrument? Not fair!!!

Sorry MNW!!! If it makes it easier they are changing the string scales and sightreading from next year - so who knows what that will bring!!!

Just saw your location. I'm from Bonnie Cumbernauld so the odds have always been stacked against me!

OMG Do you know something I don't know?!!!

Which syllabus are you guys talking about? The one I've been using doesn't mention examined Clef at all!!!

muzikalbadger - How come you had to do sight-reading WITH treble clef if it's not on the syllabus?!!!

Now I'm in a panic - I've had a quick look at the exam syllabus I've been using and couldn't find mention of Treble Clef, then found it mentioned at G6 instead!!! But I cannot find this bl**dy P7 that they keep referring to! WHERE IS IT?!!!

The general String bit is Pages 1 and 2, then Violin starts at Page 10 AAAAHHHHHHH

Also where are the Pages 56 etc which they talk refer to in the Aural bit?

I'm def going potty here!

MNW I blame you.

Lol... poor you!!! Im in Bellshill, but my parents are in Stirling so I drive past Cumbernauld most weekends!
You have my sympathies!!!



http://www.abrsm.org/regions/fileadmin/use...ements10_02.pdf this has page 6 and 7, not page 1 and 2, and the reason treble clef isn't mentioned is because you won't get it in sightreading until grade 6 - I expect I got it because the examiner knew I was a much higher level, and was doing a viola exam, in order to work towards teaching it properly as I already play violin to beyond grade 8 standard and teach it

This is the full aural syllabus http://www.abrsm.org/regions/fileadmin/use...lComplete11.pdf

Hope this helps! If you have any questions about any of it feel free to pm me

Thanks Muzicalbadger. I was actually looking at the first one, but as there were 2 pages on Preview I really did go potty and forgot to check what page number they were!!! (I know - a Maths grad should be good with numbers but I've not been the same since having my 2 DSs!!!).

Couldn't find the Aural ones at all though, so that is very useful. I've always gone along with the Hofnote categories without knowing what the ABRSM ones were!! Glad someone out there has their wits about them.

Glad it helped

Im kinda worried reading this. I put in for my Grade 8 and havent received a date where I am yet... :/

p.s sorry for the hijack.

I wouldn't worry. Some schools put everyone in at the same time and arrange a special visit from an examiner for this (they need a minimum length of exams to do this, so you can't do it just for yourself unless you intend on taking rather a lot of exams in the same day!), rather than going through the general sessions at one of the exam centres. Special visits get arranged separately, so the dates get allocated separately as well.

special visit. Might have guessed

Here at Tonedeaf Towers we are relying on run of the mill Session B and have no idea when Daughter's 'in for it.' I was wondering - do people think it's better having a Special Visit and so knowing the exact date so much earlier? I think Daughter might panic more.

Less stressful as a parent, than trying to keep the diary empty / flexible.

Mind you the visits we've had have been in school, so apart from sending them into school with the instrument as normal I don't have to worry about getting them there or accompanists or anything. The only downside is that the results seem to be slower. We waited five weeks for grade 8 clarinet one summer and I was convinced the teacher wasn't phoning as promised because it was bad news, but she was getting as stressed as I was!

I only ever did my Grade 3 through the school. I think that if you have a reliable good accompianist and a good teacher then I don't believe it matters whether you go through the school or whether you go outside.

Different things are better for different people

DS as only done his exams through the Music Trust. They book an ABRSM examiner for the last week of each term (which we like as school isn't doing much and we are always around), they are always held in the Music Room at their offices and the Accompanist is always the same so she gets to know the children and she is very nice (she also teaches theory for the Trust). The results do come back through them so can be a bit slower, but another mum said that she had phoned up to see where they were and they gave her the result over the phone. So I did that this time too although DS didn't want to know until the certificate came.

Works for us. DS knows exactly where, when etc it is going to be so that's something he doesn't have to think about. DH still has to take him though - my nerves would rub off I think!

Well the latest is that Teach has told DS today that noone can do Grade 5 in a term, so it's a no for July and a yes for December - that'll be fun!

He also has DS playing the same 3 Grade 5 pieces and a 3 octave scale. I can't believe that he would want him to play the same 3 pieces for the next 7 months, so will have to check his plans. Hopefully this time will allow DS to increase his rep.

Also made the mistake of going on the 11+ website today and don't feel so confident about DS' success in the Tiffin exam either.

As we say in Yorkshire - "I'm reyt fed up".

I think I'd have a talk with the teacher, not to get him to change his mind over the exam but to find out how he's going to handle the whole situation. Make sure he has some repertoire plans, it's unrealistic to expect your son to play the G5 pieces for 7 months. I'd be asking about any weak areas of his playing and getting exercises or whatever to improve them and leaving the pieces alone for a while. The teacher may well be thinking along the lines of missing a grade or two and entering at the appropriate level once your son has G5 theory. I do think you need to know though.

Thanks NMM,

Teach says he'll be in touch later, so you've given me some good ideas of how to handle it.

DS refuses to skip grades, so it's not really an option.

Well, in theory, mine is doing it in a term so I disagree - unless he fails of course.

This may be the opportunity to get grade 5 theory under your belts and potentially start working towards grade 6 and the alto clef over the long holidays!

I'm sorry things aren't working out the way you'd hoped. I think you're right - the important thing is that your poor son doesn't get stuck with the same handful of pieces indefinitely. It doesn't really matter in the long term what year he takes what exam (Daughter was shocked to discover that her violin teacher hadn't taken her Grade 4 until she was 14 ) but he musn't get bored, and he needs to know that he's making progress. Have a word with the teacher (preferably when Violason isn't around) and see what you can cook up.

The 11 plus is grim and Tiffin is tough - but a full complement of kids do get in every year and there's no reason to suppose your lad can't be one of them. The 11 + forum is good for a laugh as well - some of the time - but really .... if folks here think they've got problems with pushy parents ....

Claudia's school always told us that grade 5 was the one exam that you had to have a distinction for - that that was some kind of benchmark number - and that it was worth delaying the exam to make sure that result was attainable.

It doesn't matter if you don't if you then prove yourself in an audition by playing at that standard but if you don't get distinction in the exam then you probably aren't distinction standard so you would probably be better off saying you are grade 4 and playing really well at that level than saying you are grade 5 and not being quite at that stage yet.

We were also told that for violin you needed to have done grade 5 by age 10 but for other instruments it is expected that you do them later. But the length of time the child has been playing is also taken into account.

As for pieces, if they are ready then I am sure the teacher will ask that they are put away and retrieved nearer the time. We are doing the same with piano. Claudia is ready for the exam but we won't be doing it until November so the teacher asked her to stop playing them altogether and move onto other things.

Having said all of that, and has been mentioned above, your exam result only counts until the next one so if you don't get distinction at grade 5 then it will be wiped out by a distinction in grade 6.

I agree in part with your point Claudia's Mum but then a student can have a bad day at the audition, a new reed as the best one broke the night before (eek), or a harsh examiner. Even if DS only gets a pass I know he is now grade 5 level because every new grade 5 piece he has looked at in the last couple of weeks he is managing to play the notes and rhythm correctly within a couple of days. I may be setting myself up for a fall but I would be surprised if he didn't get strong marks in his pieces and it's not that he is not capable of grade 5 level scales, sight-reading etc it's just that there has been no focus on them. Had he been drip-fed these techniques and scales during each lesson then I am convinced he would have been ready. When I think about it, he couldn't even get C major (2 octaves) right in December and now he can play Ab major at good speed and accurately.

Before we had even thought about the RCM we were already aware that the only opportunities to sit exams was in the summer term because of choir commitments in the other terms. Of course when I made that decision I was expecting DS to sit grade 4 next summer, not grade 5 this summer!

Interestingly, many of the senior schools are now ditching scales in auditions in favour of pieces and sight-reading only as they feel that although it improves speed and dexterity, the most I important thing is being able to play pieces with musicality.

Um ... you need to have done Grade 5 violin by 10 or what ..? I think maybe you need to clarify that. Quite bemused non musical mother here.

The only exam where it really truly honestly matters about your exam grading is Grade 8 surely, and the reason being that a distinction at Grade 8 is worth 1/2 an A level, in terms of UCAS points (for some courses)? But despite that I still wouldn't rush it.

Retrospect is a great ally, but doing our G5 in a term was just horrendous and I really put my daughter through it to help her get up to standard to get that distinction, which she managed, just, but it almost put her off completely! I also noticed that about 3 months after her exam, she was then able to actually properly manage her exam pieces (she'd kept them going as performance pieces), so she really hadn't been ready. We took an extra term for G7 last year and didn't regret it. Now doing the same for G8 - waiting till Christmas.

Don't be too disheartened Viola mum - going into an exam under prepared is a horrid feeling. - expanding repertoire during this time is a fantastic idea, but use the time to really concentrate on scales sight reading and aural so he can go into his exam in November feeing supremely confident. He will still be a grade 5 standard player, and if he does it in November he will still be able to write it on his school application form.

Just playing devil advocate here but you could always enter him privately.

Don't know if it's a case of 'great minds think alike' or 'fools seldom differ' but I had been wondering about that -would mean jumping on the back of someone else's Visit though (Session B being ready to roll - no date yet for Daughter ) - and finding an accompanist etc. Probably not worth the hassle - but thought I'd better 'fess up that MNW isn't the only around (yes - I know it's Father Christmas but I'm hopeless at finding emoticons and it's an anagram. )

Except that it could cause problems with the teacher.
It may appear as though your are not trusting their judgement.
If you feel strongly about an earlier exam best to discuss it properly.

Once again thanks for all your words of wisdom (is that the right word?!!!).

Feeling much happier today. Had a really lovely email from Teach last night (brought a tear to my eye) which explained why he thought July wasn't the best option. He said main reason was that DS had done so well this far and to drop the standard would be an injustice to his playing and his abilities. He also said what he wanted to teach DS over the next few months. He offered to find an exam center where DS could do the exam in early Autumn and he could enter him privately (not through the Trust). He ended by saying that DS was an exceptional pupil and he hoped that DS wasn't too disappointed. Aaawwww! Isn't it nice when people say lovely things about your DCs?

DS is disappointed but also a bit relieved! He's worked so hard since last February and not had a break from exams, so less pressure could be a good thing. Although he still has the pressure of Tiffin work! I'm starting to wonder whether we should just send him to the better of our local schools (if he could get in) where the Trust provides music teachers and where he could continue with Teach! I think we've dropped on a really nice genuine teacher. Of course having come this far - we've got to give DS the best chance at the school he wants to go to! But after being desperate for him to get into Tiffin, I think I've finally adopted DS' laid back approach to it!

I don't know what's the matter with me today. Maybe the adrenalin of yesterday has changed me into some normal person! Then again.....

That's great. You've definitely got a really caring and committed teacher there and yes, that can be a factor in choosing your back up plan school for your son. Daughter will be continuing with all her same music teachers when she goes to Secondary School after the summer and I know that will make the transition easier for her. So lovely to hear your son's talents appreciated. We've been appreciating him on forum for a long time - he's obviously got real talent and works hard as well. Very pleased for you all.

Interesting that your son is relieved - I think this shows that leaving the exam to the Autumn term is the best thing. I also think he's right in his approach to schools. He should try for Tiffin if it's what he'd (and you'd) like, but given the ratio of applicants to places, unless he's a genius getting a place is uncertain, so he is wise to be laid back about it.

If Tiffin is the right school for your boy, he will get in. On the other hand, if he struggles to do the entrance exam, he would find it very hard to keep up at that school anyway, and it's never nice to be towards the bottom of the class. Children's self-estem is higher near the top of the class in an academically poorer school, which can offset any losses in terms of exam results. I'd keep a weather eye on alternatives to Tiffin just in case.

Awww thanks! We still think it's hard work rather than talent. Maybe we don't give him enough credit. But as the Mum of a 9 year old boy, who sometimes drives me mad, it's difficult to see him as others do!! I watched him playing the other day and his fingers were flying about all over the place producing a fantastic hornpipe. I said in amazement "I can't understand how you know where to put your fingers", he replied "Neither do I"!!! It's all I can do to bow the 4 open strings!!!

Still feeling chilled and happy - not sure it can last much longer!!! Maybe I'm coming down with something!

Cannot possibly work out the anagram but Tondeafmum? "I you!"

Well obviously its DTM....or was it MDT....or TMD..... shall we just call her The Wise One! Or even TWO for short?!!!

Possibly a wise old owl but rather more a Twit than a Twoo.

Did you hear the one about the dyslexic devil worshipper?
He sold his soul to Santa.

Not my opinion at all because I don't know anything about these things, just what we were told by head of music, music teacher etc.

I think they were just trying to get across the fact that violin is very competitive so not to be disappointed if things don't happen. They do take age into account in things like to NCO because the orchestras are age banded.