So, thinking about other threads, what are the opportunities for the more mature player? I am thinking those 35/40 +. Are there any or is it a closed shop?

I would love to hear your thoughs and experiences.

What do you mean by opportunities?

If you mean playing opportunities, have a look at the "Events" forum, you'll see that there are a number of Adult Learner events coming up - the next one is at Stalybridge at the end of July.

I *think* there's still a space left, but if you'd like to come along you'll need to get a form in quickly as the closing date is nearly upon us.....

Thanks for that Katyjay. I wasn't actually thinking of 'fun' opportunities, but more professional opportunities.

Then you take your chances with every other professional in the land.

Difficult, and to be honest, I think in general need to be self-created, which is a tough call especially if music is a second string to your bow, rather than a first. If I were in good shape musically just now, I'd be playing at just short of professional standard, but to have the chance to play in concerts as a soloist, I'd need to get together other players, rehearse a programme with them, find a venue, twist the arms of patient friends to come and listen, etc etc.....

....I do occasionally get asked to provide some music for occasions: these tend to be social events attended by people who normally regularly listen to concerts of "proper" musicians, or leaving "do"s or Big Birthday parties, and the only other work I'd get would be as part of a group organised by someone who has done the getting together of other players, etc mentioned above. The difficulty is getting to know other like-minded and similarly skilled musicians and finding opportunities to play together. Gradually networks of such players do tend to build up - but they're not always that balanced. Being a recorder player, I appear to have got to know rather more recorder players than is useful for anything other than a recorder orchestra, and being married to a harpsichord museum curator, I also know more harpsichordists than can usefully be employed all together - and the ones I would really need to meet, strings players of good standard, have been snapped up by various orchestras in the city .

Thanks for the reply Anacrusis. I was curious about it.

It's good to hear about first-hand experiences.

Tassimo. if you are looking more for playing rather than as a pro, then you need to keep enquiring around.
For example, when I med from Bristol to Worcester a few months ago [and a more mature player - I am 67 and have been playing clarinet for just over two years] - I kept asking around. One this forum, amongst neighbours, at forum events and so on.

I have grade 4 and am now working for G5 so anything professional is out. However, I have found a teacher [not my clari teacher] who is also my age and who is keen to share playing - clari duets, accompanying me on piano and sharing with other instruments she plays. We only ge to play once or twice a month but not only is it fun but I find it is amazing in my own playing development. And now she says she has a friend who plays cello who might join us sometime.

Then there are forum events and I have met some wonderful people who I now meet occasionally to play with.

Come the autumn I plan to join the local music school where they have a chamber group every Thursday - any orchestral instrument - and I hope to find, perhaps at least one, like minded soul to share playing music.

Out of all this my ultimate goal is to find others to form a small ensemble for fun and, maybe one day, some performance.

My duetting friend has contacts with residential homes where they need all the entertainment they can get so we are putting together a programme to play there.

I can't ever envisage earning from playing but I bet I'll have a good time.

I have realised that pianists don't seems to get much opportunity to share with such a large instrument to carry about; and it seems that string players seem to stick together - I might be way off there so apology to those who do play with our instruments.
So seek out some wind players, perhaps?
They might never have thought of joining up with a strings player - could have interesting outcomes.

Whatever you seek, Tassimo, good luck with the search.

It is very, very rare for professional opportuntities to just appear. If you are wanting to develop into a professional musician then you need to build the skills and experience required, including things like performance experience and experience of working with other musicians at an amateur level. There is more to being a professional musician than technical proficiency, and these other skills need to be developed alongside your technical ability.

I think you're being a little bit hasty in your rejection of Katyjay's suggestions. It is through amateur, or what you call 'fun', opportunities that you develop your skills as a musician and performer, and where you begin to develop the kinds of networks which anacrusis talks about. As a comparision, a new professional footballer doesn't suddently step out onto the pitch without having built skills and match experience at an amateur level. For a footballer, technical brilliancy on its own isn't enough - they also need the experience to (for example) know how to read matches, work with other team members and deal with things like hostile crowds. Music is the same: you need both the technical skill and the wider experience in order to have a solid foundation for a professional career, and this applies regardless of age.

No, I don't think so. I was asking more about professional opportunities than amateur events. I completely understand that to build up to professional status you have to have served your time in the amateur ranks.

I think that perhaps I didn't get my question across properly or it is not being read as such.

I was asking if it was a closed shop to more mature players - coming in as a mature player, rather than starting out younger and remaining within the industry.




Thanks ChristopherO you make some great points and give some great advice.

No, work in the professional music world does not, on the whole, depend on your age. It depends on ability, contacts you build up through networking, willingness to market yourself , freedom to travel and, most importantly, experience. Tick those boxes and the opportunities will be out there for you to find - but they won't be given to you any more than they have been to any other professional musician.

I started my singing studies in my mid-30s, and am now, eight years on, getting various bits of paid performance work as well as having a good teaching practice.
My age has not been an issue at all. And experience I built as an amateur, through what you dismiss as "fun" events, has been an important part of the CV that gets me my professional work.

As you're currently at grade 3 violin (if I recall correctly) I think your priorities have to be to continue your studies to improve your playing ability, and build as much performing experience in the amateur context as you can.


Oh, and Christopher O's post is entirely about amateur experience and playing for fun.

Thanks for your points Katyjay, it's good to hear of experiences, which is what I was after. As for me wanting to play professionally....I don't think that I said that I wanted to play professionally. I was just curious as to how mature members had found the professional. I don't have the ability to play professionally and nor would I want to....I am more than happy with my career choice.

Again, I reiterate, I am interested in the experience of others.




Yes it was and to that point he gave a great account of his experience and offering advice to go along with his experience

At 41 I'm no spring chicken, but I wouldn't advertise for a pro piano recital... and I'm about to take Grade 8. Now if and when I've passed it and have enough music for a lunch time concert that is another matter.

When I retire from my main job next Easter, I would love to do occasional work playing 'light classical' for hotels, restaurants, weddings, and other events. But I havent a clue how to get it all going.

lunch time concert on its way....



Excellent. I think that it would be great to support members like yourself and I am sure that there will be someone here who has been there, worn the t-shirt and can advise. I am sure that there are many of us who are curious as to how you make that step.

I admire you fsharpminor for wanting to take that step. What a fab part-time gig that would be.

Have you got a favourite restaurant where you could have the "retirement do" that has a piano where you could "do a turn" as part of the proceedings.

Also National Trust keep all their pianos in tune. Try contacting a local property with the view to playing there for awhile.

Tassimo, when I want to do a Public Recital as a pianist rather than do my day job as a Concert Soprano/ Singing Piano Teacher I don't think I'll require your services. If I do want to employ the services of another forumite to help with PR front of house then other names slip of the toungue rather more readily!

Yes, we all have to be realistic - the world is full of musicians of all standards.
The challenge is to shine and, like a job application, we have to show what we have done and well as how we play.

Even to join an amateur ensemble I would expect to have to prove myself; why would they want me to play with them in the mass of choice unless I was adding something special of value?

So, I seize every opportunity for experiences and to develop a range of skill that may be needed. And I still recognize that I will remain an amateur and possibly get performance opportunity with another wind band or small group - if I am competitively good enough for them.

My advice is don't try so hard to become professional
- but try hard to be an excellent musician with lots of all round experiences.

Then the opportunities may, just may, one day start to appear?

So why are you asking about how you can gain opportunities to play as a professional if you have no interest in doing this? I'm sure that what you're asking makes perfect sense to you inside your head, but I'm not convinced it's coming across on here as you intend...

As a grade 3 violinist, you are very unlikely to obtain any professional engagements - regardless of how old/young you are (and I don't count a 2-year-old appearing on a US talent/freak show as a professional engagement...). You might be asked to play a little bit of music on a voluntary basis for something like a church or village flower show, but it's very unlikely that you would be paid for doing this. They would probably be giving you more in terms of the performance opportunity and experience than you would be giving them in terms of quality of music.

Regardless of age, the only way of progressing to be a professional is through building up your skills and experience together and making the most of the opportunities which are available to you during this journey. If someone, for whatever reason, is unwilling to be involved in any 'amateur' events then they will find it much harder to develop the skills and experience required for a professional career. This is the same whether you're 16, 46 or 76.

In my experience, what most people do is take advantage of any opportunties which are available to them. I am a regular church musician on my main instrument (flute) but this is voluntary. With the exception of organists, church musicians are very rarely paid. Sometimes (but by no means always) we will receive a donation for playing at a Wedding or other function, but this is money which goes on things like equipment. We don't receive any money as individuals. I play regularly in a local orchestra and again this is unpaid (and has professional standard players who are also unpaid). I also go to some of the forum events (which I would highly recommend, even though you seem to be turning your nose up at them for some reason).

Unless you get a job with a leading orchestra that pays you enough money to live off, the boundary between amateur and professional is rather blurred. Some of the people I regularly play with also get occasional (and sometime regular) paid engagements, but they piece their income together from a variety of jobs. Is the person who plays in amateur groups but also gets professional engagements an amateur or a professional? Does the instrumental teacher who sometimes plays in voluntary (unpaid) recitals or regularly plays in an amateur orchestra play in these events as an amateur or as a professional? The boundaries aren't clear cut...

That is a fabulous idea!



How about.....because I am curious about member's experiences. That's it. Now, I haven't been on this forum long so perhaps general curiosity is not the 'done thing'? If it isn't then I am happy for this thread to be deleted.

Just chit chatting.....





As a grade 3 violinist why would I want to even seek professional engagements? I don't get that? As much as I scratch my head I wouldn't begin to understand what would be asked of me professionally.......hence the reason that I would not consider doing that.

Can everybody please read my first question.....there is no mention of me wanting to work professionally as a violinist.

This is a good point and a good post. I think it's important to realise that "professional" covers quite a lot, and you need to think about what kind of opportunity you are talking about! If what you mean by professional includes a spot on the world stage as an international star - well, you have to do the maths really.
And for what it's worth, barring some notable exceptions, (see Katyjay's post ) the performing arts are as much affected by ageism as any other profession. Feel free to disagree, but it's a competitive world out there!
None of that means you can't be an excellent musician, but if you don't look for and take advantage of the chances to play with and for others as they come along, you might miss out



Apologies - I have just seen your explanation!!

Aha! now you've made that clear. The penny had dropped.

I would go for the play at local stately home especially if they have a really nice instrument and you can get the volunteers onside.

Similarly, try to get bookings at friends gigs. I got early bookings "singing for my supper"- quite literally at friends weddings.

A professional musician put it very bluntly and rather impolitely. I would not advocate the being a four letter word meaning posterior bit but the smoozing up to the right kind of people that can be interpreted as "licking" the same part of the anatomy can help, but only if that is your style. I did know a number of reasonable famous people who when I turned pages for them as a student were really nice and offered me their sandwiches just to prove that nice people can make it too.

Do tout your wears and tell people just how marvellous you are... but without people wanting to reach for the sick bucket.

Make as much of free advertising as you can, especially local journalists.

Be charming - nobody likes a stroppy diva/divo whatever their age or instrument.

Smile and the whole world will love you.

Thanks for those with encourageing comments. As I say , not till next spring, but I do have one restaurant on the Wirral in mind. I'd be prepared to do one gig free for the experience.

Or as I was advised on my first outing on the 'extras' list for a national orchestra (having first played to the principal under the half truth of going for a lesson with her), "Turn up early, look keen, smile at everyone and get the drinks in". Once you're in, your reliability is the key factor.

That would make sense. I love the half truth

Well - it was a whole truth really. I wanted a lesson or two to check where I was in relation to where I wanted to be, so booked up with said principal player. At the end of the first lesson, I asked for her honest assessment (this was after some time of not doing much professional playing), and she said that she'd have no hesitation in recommending me for the extras list of her orchestra. Which strikes me as a far less stressful way of going about it than applying for nerve-wracking auditions.

If you've been out of the scene for a while, and don't have the conservatoire blankets of help around you, or you've moved to a new area, I think you do just have to play to people you want to work with. And if you're up to the job, and reliable, you'll get work with them. And then you'll meet their contacts and colleagues, who you make friends with, and then you work for / with them. And you always swap phone numbers with your desk partner and promise to give them any work you come across and can't do, hoping they'll do the same for you. And you Never Let Anyone Down. Otherwise you won't work for them, or anyone they like ever again!

Or if the worst comes to the worst sort out your own dep. Don't leave people in the lurch.

Is that so they are sufficiently drunk that the ensemble needs to pick someone off of the reserve list, oh look who that just happens to be?

I'd just reiterate - meet lots of other musicians* however you can - play with as many as you can - be available and willing to do [almost] anything . . . .and doors will start to open.

* including forum events - such invaluable experience and have been so very good for me.

Have a good time, enjoy the music

I am also an older female clarinet player looking to play duets etc Grade 4 but playing G5 to G6 at moment. Living in surrey

I organise amateur piano events in London, PM if you want more info!

If you like jazz, you could always go along to one of the Jazz Collective events in Totnes (not too far from you). There are loads of experienced players there, amateur and professional. Could be fun.