No improvement on this front. He has been learning for around four years and was due to sit grade 5 this term but I postponed it. He practices for under 15 mins 5 days a week at boarding school and rarely brings it home in the holidays. He moans if I talk about him practicing but he doesn't want to give it up. I'm really confused because I don't want to take away the pleasure he gets when he's involved in school music groups but I feel he needs to play his part and can't expect me to keep coughing up for lessons when he does the absolute minimum. He's actually very musical and had he practiced more I know he would have achieved much more, not that this matters, but it adds to the frustration.

If he enjoys the music groups would he be able to continue taking part even if he wasn't actually having lessons? Maybe having a break from lessons and just playing for fun would restart his interest, as if he's enjoying the music groups it may boost him to want to get better and restart lessons being willing to put some work in. I understand your frustration that he isn't progressing as fast as you feel he could be but evidently he is making some progress so presumably he is getting something out of the lessons, maybe flute just isn't a major priority for him and he doesn't want to push through the grades because it feels too much like 'work'.

Is it directly linked that if he stops lessons he'll have to stop going to orchesta? I know sometimes with fee-paying school places you do buy a package of music, and particularly with something like flute where there are very few desks available and they may want to change him for a pupil who is making more progress. But if he enjoys making music with others and wants to give up having individual lessons and those things are not tied into each other then why could he not carry on with the bits he likes while getting rid of the bits he doesn't? Perhaps he just finds solo work boring. If he stops having lessons he may actually play even more than before. Would it be tricky to get the lessons back if you stop them, is there a waiting list or is it just a case of going back to asking for them and paying for them if he regrets dropping lessons? You could discuss it as a break rather than a giving up, it might be easier that way.

I actually thought I posted this in the parent's section. It is possible to make a genuine mistake but thanks for the reprimand!

I think the key points are that although he does very little practice, he does do some while he is at school, and he wants to keep going. The conspicuous musical achievements of his brother must surely have some impact on his feelings about the whole thing, too. As others have pointed out, perhaps he is happy as an ensemble player, rather than a soloist. In which case, perhaps you could get him interested in some chamber music for flute and other instruments if you feel he needs another challenge?

I agree with much of what has already been said.

Depending on how much he still needs to do to be ready for the exam, I'd either encourage him to pull out the stops and get it done next term or leave off exams altogether for a while. Then I'd try and change tack for a bit and ask his teacher to do something completely different for a term or so. Playing duets with the teacher? jazz? Trying out lots of short pieces rather than working on perfecting something for an exam? Discovering new composers or playing lots of pieces by his favourite? Trying out new techniques? Basically, as much as whatever your son likes doing best so that he wants to practise rather than find it a chore. Keep up with orchestra obviously.

If that doesn't work perhaps say that he will have to stop lessons unless he does at least x minutes practice a day. Do you have any way of knowing how much practice he does at school other than by him telling you? Of course - as with all threats - there's no point in saying that unless you mean it. Both my daughters have gone through phases of doing minimal amounts of practice on one of more instrument from time to time. Annoying though it can be, I'd rather that than they gave up altogether!

I may have misread some of your posts but the impression I have is that your other son does even less practice than that. If that is the case then regardless of the apparent difference in speed of progress it my seem a little unfair that his brother 'gets away with' doing less practice without any suggestion of discontinuing lessons.

Thank you for all your advice and I agree in principle with many points, especially the ensemble work. His current school set up is that he will not be able to participate in anything if he doesn't have a lesson.

My issue is that I want him to meet me half way. Why should I fork out tuition fees if he won't practice?

Other son tends to do around 30 mins practice (up to an hour if he has an exam) when he is at home which is usually 4 days a week. This will change to 2 hours 40mins over 6 days when he goes to Purcell, so he does practice more than DS1. If he can't practice it is because he is in choir rehearsals/Evensong so it is still music practice.

A lot of flautists go through a plateau at around grade 5-6 and it can take a while to come out of this (sometimes a year or more). This phase can be very discouraging and demotivating because it is difficult to see progress, and I suspect that this may be where your son is at the moment. If he's still enjoying his playing then I wouldn't worry about it. The orchestral playing will help keep his embouchure etc in shape, and sooner or later things will probably click into place for him at which point lessons and practice will become more enjoyable again.

I think I need to have a good chat with him. I'm not very impressed with the current set-up. It seems that all they do is work towards exams. When I mentioned skipping one and moving onto a higher grade a couple of years ago the director of music had never heard of such a thing! I've decided he won't sit grade 5 and hopefully not sit anymore unless he gets to grade 8 or has a burning desire to do so.

There is plenty of good grade 5-6 repertoire for flute. There is a shift at this stage towards playing 'real' repertoire, which is great in some respects but also adds to some of the frustrations associated with the grade 5-6 plateau. Many of the repertoire pieces introduced at this stage e.g. Handel sonatas, Gluck Minuet and Dance of the Blessed Spirits, Faure Sicilliene can be managed at a basic level by a player of your son's standard, but are difficult to play really well. It stops being a case of just learning the notes and fingerings and becomes much more of a challenge in terms of technique and expression. It is easy to know 'how' you want the piece to sound, and to know in principle how to do that, but you very frustratingly can't quite get what you want out of the flute (but people don't normally recongnise this as the problem at the time and so get discouraged, don't feel like practicing etc). This is also the stage when player-flute relationships get more individual and sometimes you can get something that works really well for one player and not another. A lot of very gradual shifting and experimenting with slightly different ways of doing things gets done, and it can seem like you aren't actually getting anywhere - until you suddenly get out of the plateau.

that is where I am at the moment, doesn't feel like I'm getting anywhere, but when a piece gets pulled out from a while back (like last year's Christmas band music), I can hear the difference. But the day to day stuff can feel a bit soul destroying....

We've had a similar situation with flute and possibly other instruments but flute was first and that's always the hardest situation to deal with.

I think it's important to try to establish what he does and doesn't like about the playing he enjoys. It may be because he prefers ensemble playing but it may also be that he can blag it through orchestra/band and doesn't need to practice, perhaps the material is sufficiently easy or he is not really heard through the texture so he can just turn up, play the music and then go on his way and stuff the music back in a bag for another full week.

If he's wanting to cruise along for a while then that's a different strategy for moving forward than if he is happy to push forward in an ensemble format. If the school is really obsessed with exams, he likes ensemble playing and you and he are happy to make the compromise of still doing exams but changing tack, exams exist for ensembles too. He's the perfect grade level for ABRSM Primary Ensemble, though perhaps the teacher will have kittens at the idea of preparing for a less familiar syllabus: too bad! Ensemble gives an opportunity for other keen candidates to get two certificates in one sitting and provides an additional 17 minutes of examining work for a special visit should you have to "sell" the idea to the school.

If he's looking to take the pressure off for a while rather than constantly go forward with the next technical challenge there are all kinds of suggestions but honestly it doesn't sound like that's the right teacher/teaching environment to support it. Wider repertoire doesn't seem to be part of their system, and even if you say no to more grades, those who teach grade, grade, grade as if that's all that matters generally find it tricky to pull back from that attitude, and even with the grades themselves off the table this teacher may still be very pushy. Do you have much opportunity for communication with the teacher or is it all very arm's length?

Hmmm a lot of kids lose some motivation at some point! It might make it harder for you to try and claw back some with him being away at boarding school, could you perhaps have a word with whoever supervises music practise to make sure he has some goals to work towards and is getting something out of practise. Perhaps, even finding a duet partner?

Sorry to say that I have a feeling that 15 mins is pretty good for a lad of that age at boarding school. I reckon I did about 15 mins a day (but x2 for 2 instruments) at boarding school at that age. AQnd I was a music scholar with a lot of performances. You are really busy at selective academic schools especially if you do sports as well. And I can tell you, I was very often the only one in the practice rooms both before and after dinner in our house of 80ish girls of whom about half had lessons on something..... One very good musician and I used to commune in the basement music rooms and have nice chat - practice was not supervised after age 12. At busy exam periods I would sight read from lesson to lesson with one practice the night before the lesson without admitting it or admit my failings and work on orchestral/ensemble parts during the lesson for my orchestra instrument. You can do a lot in 15 mins - believe me.

I have to say that although my mother is very thrifty she was just grateful I didnt want to give up. I dont think she ever asked how much I practiced and I would have lied anyway to avoid an argument.

The most motivating thing at that age is not to make a total prat of yourself in orchestra or ensemble or concert. And first cello which is what I was has no where to hide from irrascible conductor. So that music always got some attention especially the county orchestra stuff.

I would give him the offer of scrapping the exam too. And see what he wants to do - I think he will keep progressing from what you say and as the parts get more tricky he will do more work on them if he likes playing in a group.

I would definately keep going. Its a hobby not a career for him I assume and my hope would be he will enjoy it and want to do more at some point. It must be very offputting to be in the same house as his mega star musical brother as it is - many would have chucked it in in those circumstances.

My son asked to give up trumpet a year ago, when he was 12, as he was finding schoolwork so time consuming and felt he had too much to manage. We suggested a trial period of only practicing at weekends (10-15 mins a day) with no expectation to improve or do exams, just to keep joining in with the (easy) ensembles at school and do fun jazz stuff with his teacher in lessons. Two terms of this and he has found his motivation again. If anything, he's more keen as he now feels it's his own positive choice to continue.

If I understand you correctly, you want your son to give up the flute, he's quite happy continuing with the lessons and orchestra.

This is the son that is not Baboon boy, so is not your 'musical son'?

Let him continue with the flute and stop comparing them. If he is happy and still enjoying his music making whether you are hearing it or not encourage it and let him have something where 'mum' does not interfere.

It is a hard thing to do, and as a mum I tend to 'fiddle where I'm not always welcome' too, but with pubescent boys they do appreciate having some areas of their life where they are in charge and not their parents.

I was another teenage "non practiser" - I think my teacher would have been thrilled with 15 minutes a day. Still managed to get up to grade 5 though. I was in the more fortunate position of being able to give up lessons but still continue playing in the school windband which I absolutely LOVED. That involved 2 practices a week which kept my embouchure going and actually over the years improved my playing quite a lot as I was sat next to a very good flautist. If he is stil enjoying it, wants to have lessons and is still doing some practice I would probably stick with it - especially if stopping lessons also takes away the opportunity to play in ensembles. If it isn't going to be a career the key point is to maintain interest, enjoyment and get to a level where we can keep playing withother people beyond school and then it is up to him if he wants to improve any further.

I'm slightly confused as to why you think I'm comparing them Jod. They are two totally different boys with virtually no similar traits or talents. My point has been, why should I pay for lessons when he won't practice. He only practices because the school makes him and he does nothing when he's at home. What DS2 does is of no consequence to this issue.

But I will let him keep it up for a while and see how things go.

How come <you> can't make him practice?

He?s at a boarding school, hence away from home a lot of the time.

So the difference in practice routine is that son number 1 only practices at school when you aren't there and son number two only practices at home when you are. Looks a bit like swings and roundabouts from information you've put on the forum, or at least from my interpretation of it.
Do you know how his teacher feels about his playing?
A teacher who knows that the student's main interest is in ensemble playing will be supporting this and it will not necessarily mean no technical progress as the same issues can be addressed through working on his orchestra parts as can be through solo repertoire.
Also as has already been mentioned you can do quite a lot with 15 minutes if you know how to use it effectively. He may well have been taught some practice techniques which enable him to make good use of his time.
I heard a tale of an adult amateur pianist who learned quite big works on less time than that.

Please don't be too disparaging about the 15 minutes thing. The lad is practising 5 days a week!! He deserves credit for that, even if the school has had to give him a bit of a shove. Little and often works really well, and 15 minutes' practice (done this often) is adequate up to a surprisingly advanced standard. I'm not a wind player myself, but I understand that *frequent* practice is even more critical for wind players than it is for strings or piano.

Another idea to throw in the pot: when I was in my teens I couldn't bear the idea of my parents listening to me play. They were encouraging and kind, but that didn't make any difference - I was a teenager, and very self-conscious with it. There may be an element of this with your son.

I'm really pleased to see you have described him as musical. It should be a good boost for him knowing you think this. Also, regardless of whether you are comparing your sons with one another, you can bet your life that they are doing this themselves.

But back to the topic, stopping lessons isn't the same as giving up. It's for you and him to decide whether he carries on with lessons, but if he decides to stop, I would urge you to hold onto the flute and encourage him to play as and when he feels like it. Whilst at home perhaps he could be encouraged with some fun things like the books that come with a play-along CD?

I don't intend to make him practice. I can advise/suggest but not force. The school practice is compulsory and he wouldn't practice if it wasn't.

Maybe he just needs to be inspired. His prep is tiny and his senior school will be massive so he may find new areas of interest as suggested. I will talk to him about him cooperating and compromising with me. Maybe a computer ban...

I know that but I was asking how he is 'encouraged' to practise successfully in one setting but not in the other!



Ah DS5 will tell you that the computer only appears out of the boot of my car AFTER practice. It is then irritating for him to have to connect it all up again so the incentive to Get On With Practise When It Is Suggested is VERY strong

violincjj - that sounds like a lot of hassle for you too, to disconnect and put in boot of car! I don?t think I?d have the energy to physically remove our computer on a daily basis...

I hate what computers have done to childhood today. My boys are like zombies and have no imagination anymore. I like the PC idea and I think I'll get him to disconnect it!

30 minutes flute = 30 mintes pc. That should see flute practice improve on a daily basis!

No I only had to do it once so he knows that I will! Now he starts practice the First time he is asked!

There's only the one computer in the house - it's my lap top and it's mostly on my lap. Haven't had any practice problems (yet) except that quantity tends to be easier to achieve than quality.
15 minutes isn't bad - if it's a good 15 minutes.

A neat trick for desktop computers - remove the cable that joins the computer to the monitor. The computer can still be switched on, but you can't see anything. It's quick and easy, you don't have to do any major re-arranging or move big heavy things about
My mother did this when her "in the process of becoming ex-" husband was in her house (doing some DIY out of guilt!) and she had to go out and didn't want him nosing on her computer. She came back and he had the Right Hump, so we think it was the correct thing to do.

hahaha on the computer stuff! The kids I teach seem to be more attracted to video games - xbox, playstation, wii, than actual computers (pc's) and the internet.

I've removed plugs.

That's our favourite trick, plus hubby taking the lap-top to work, or removing an important lead and taking that to work.

We are a multi computer house-hold and the children only have accounts on some of the machines. Their accounts can be blocked at admin level at any time, and guess what they do not have access to the admin account.

Easy, block their account, and keep mum and dad's passwords safe.

Make sure the game stations have a few vital components like plugs and leads missing and they have no gaming systems available. It may mean they need mum to sit with them if they need a computer to do homework, but who is in charge?

That trick could work very well, I heard it in one of Vanessa Mae's video that she has to earn play time.

i use to take out the fuse on the TV ...

Its early days. I agree that a duet partner might help. Can you take him to a flautist's recital? It might encourge him if he can see what hard work/practise eventually achieves.

If he derives pleasure from playing and is still improving through his ensembles is it essential that he DOES do more than 15 minutes a day? My 14 year old daughter rarely practices her Euphonium regularly unless something important is coming up (like her Grade 8 next week - she has been practising for about 45 minutes each morning before school for about 2 weeks now so should be fine) as she has many other committments both musicially and academically. She does however play it at least twice a week in school ensembles and she has a lesson in school for 30 minutes once a week - she normally makes sure that she has done at least one good practice session a week for the teacher so she's not wasting his time. I doubt that even adds up to the amount of time your lad is practising his flute but I wouldn't ask her to give up the euphonium

I think perhaps that we want them to want to practise because then we would know that music mattered to them.

But we can tell that from other things - the way they perform and use their music to give pleasure to others, to help themselves on a day when school or friendships make them sad or as a social pleasure when playing with others. It is so easy to expect a direct equation like

I pay for your lessons + I support you + you practice loads = musical genius + my parenting looks great

The human dynamics are more important though I think. I have endured times when my 5 sons did little practice but I figured that stopping lessons would not improve their abilities. I am glad we kept going through the fallow practice times.

My equation is:

I pay+ I support you = least you can do is practice!

But that's the problem. You're trying to keep control of it and it's not for YOU. It's for them. I think you have to freely give it and let them own the music for themselves. If they happen to share it, good. If they practice efficiently, good. But it's necessary for it to be a gift, not a contract, if it is to be a song with a happy ending.

But it never was a gift. When they took up instruments I told them that I expected them to meet me halfway, which means practice, and they could give up at any point. Families are not about giving to children all the time. It's a team and we all need to have some give and take. The older he gets, the more giving and less taking I expect. I will ask him if he doesn't practice, would he like music lessons as a Christmas present and then it will be a gift and he doesn't need to practice! I think he'll decline!

I do understand the sentiment though - you're a kinder mum than me!

But don't we as parents (i.e. the adult) need to look a bit "bigger" than that. If I said to my child who goes to a fee paying school (on a chunky bursary) "would you like me to pay your school fees as a christmas present?" then I'm sure I know exactly what she would say! She's a teenager after all. A dedicated, hard working, balanced (I hope ) teenager but still one who would tell me thanks but no thanks! Why would I expect her to say anything different? To ask your son the same about his lessons is the same idea and I can guess what he would say too (even though I've never met him)

You say you want him to meet you halfway - as a teacher (and parent) I'd honestly say he is. He IS practising. Sure, it might not be the amount you deem necessary but when he started lessons and undertook the "contract" with you ( as the lessons weren't a gift) did you specify how long you demand he practice every day and do you demand the same from both sons? If not then surely you can't move the goalposts on the lad without him getting a little irrate, confused, frustrated, downhearted, fed up etc?

A teenage lad playing the flute and practising for 15 minutes a day would be a dream to so many flute teachers on this forum. Why not run with it and wait for him to "want" more and therefore increase his practice of his own volition?

Please don't jump down my neck at me for offering my view or get defensive as you have done with others on different posts that have been replied to - I am only trying offer an alternative view and hope you will take it within the spirit in which it was offered.

At what point have I been defensive on this thread? Hard not to though when you make a comment like the one highlighted.

I have appreciated all the comments, except the one where I apparently compare my children musically as there is no evidence of this, and I have especially appreciated your comments. To disagree is not being defensive, just seeing things from a different point of view - and in this case, I do agree with a lot of what has been said.

Has pulling out of the exam had any effect on his motivation? Is he practising more or less since deciding not to go ahead? If less, perhaps he does need a goal (not necessarily an exam) to work towards?

Is there something he really wants that you can dangle as a carrot to get him moving? Bribery always works a treat with my boys!

Oh dear.
I am obviously quite the nastiest parent on the forum.
My relatives pay for some of the children's music and/or dancing lessons on the understanding that THAT is their Christmas/Birthday present from that person.
And I expect them to practise or I won't ask for the same present again next year (same principle as, if you ask for a toy car at Christmas and then never play with it, there's no point asking for another one for your birthday.)

I don't do it because I think it's a brilliant parenting technique but just because there wouldn't be the money for everything they do otherwise.

My family do like being involved though. MNW is there a family 'good guy' who could step in and start paying for the flute lessons? My children love the fact that their 'cool' uncle pays for some lessons - especially as he pays out cash bonuses for performances, exams and other evidence that practice is being done and progress is being made - which the Unco-operative Bank of Tonedeaf certainly doesn't.

I pulled him out of the exam because of his lack of practice and the fact that he managed to always "forget" his flute in the holidays! I find his ideas on music quite contradicting. He hates music, he hates the fact that the house is filled with music (well, when I'm here!) and there is a lot of singing in the house - he loathes singing! So, he never wants to practice and he was furious when I booked him into an orchestra week with his brother and he moaned every day about it. But, he loves playing in ensembles and I know he enjoyed the final performance on the last day of the course.

He is good at music and has the potential, as he knows, to be great so I don't believe it's a self-esteem issue.

When he moves school, if he can continue to play in ensembles without having lessons then I think this is the route to go down. BB has a bassoon teacher who he goes to in the holidays so I could take him to her occassionally to make sure he's not developing bad habits.

I suppose the title of the thread was incorrect. I don't want him to give up the flute but I no longer want to pay for lessons if he won't put in a little bit of work. Yes, 15 minutes 5 days a week for 26 weeks may be ok but if he was at home he wouldn't do any practice and when he moves onto senior school they have to practice in their own time and that is not going to happen, especially in his first year!

I've been in the situation with two children playing instruments. My eldest is musical and could have been a reasonable musician. She enjoyed music to a certain extent but found it very difficult that the youngest really took off. Eldest wasn't ever much of a practiser, if I'm honest, but the older she got the more she saw herself as useless when compared to younger sister.

We didn't compare them as a family and I kept on paying for lessons even when it was obvious she had lost interest and was really going through the motions. I tried pulling her out of an exam (mostly because she wasn't ready to take it), bribery, and offered other goals but nothing really worked. I have always had the belief that she could have done it if she wanted but it's hard for the child when they are in that sort of situation.

I can understand the frustration and believe me I felt like pulling her out of lessons as she did no practice whatsoever. She did stay in various ensembles right up until the time she went to uni and was valued as a tuned percussionist.

At 18 there is still some resentment of her sisters music making and I'm sure some of this is down to her personal feelings of failure. I have talked to her about the circumstances being different and the youngest really putting a lot of her time and effort into something which is a passion.

I don't regret allowing the eldest to continue lessons as I do think there were things to be gained. I wish she had fulfilled her musical potential (for her rather than for me) but that wasn't to be and I'm happy about the skills she is developing as a person in her own right.

As a teenager I would have happily accepted music lessons as a Christmas present but wanting to play was always my idea and I didn't get my piano lessons until I was 14.
The situation seems to be that he does practice (ok, maybe because it's timetabled but sometimes we need this with a full life) and playing in school ensembles can also count as practice.

Yes, I find myself timetabling each day, something along the lines of "I need to do ABCDE today, so that means today's schedule is piano practice at X o'clock, followed by shopping, housework, posting nonsense on the internet , lunch, clarinet practice, teaching, dinner..."

Ensemble playing most definitely counts! Whilst he might not be learning pieces set by his teacher, he'll still be developing other ensemble-type skills, such as the importance of playing in time and in tune, listening to others, learning when to come forward and when to hold back.

Now, how to persuade some of my teenagers to practice for fifteen minutes a week. Maybe I should draw them up timetables!