I started two eight year olds at about the same time last year - a girl and a boy. (I do have a lot of other pupils - these are just the ones I'm interested in!) I've been using Tricks to Tunes which doesn't introduce down and up bow symbols until the second book and have noticed that when they started using their bows, both initially started on up bows rather than down bows. The girl has now switched although I suspect that may be due to the fact that her mum used to play the violin and can guide her daughter a bit in these matters. The boy is still starting on up bows even though I have begun trying to get him to start with down bows. Interestingly, his bow hold is much better when he does start on an up bow, although that's obviously not good enough a reason to keep him doing it this way.

I was just curious what other people thought about this. I suppose to me the notion that you start on an down bow unless indicated otherwise is so deeply ingrained that it seems completely natural to me. It seems from these two and from another girl I taught briefly while filling in for another teacher that perhaps it is easier to start off with up bows. Is it better to have them bowing backwards to start with if it makes playing the violin easier for them? Is it going to cause problems later on if they get too used to doing it the 'wrong' way round?

Incidentally, while the series doesn't introduce the down/up bown symbols until the second book, I have been writing the symbols in myself so they will at least be familiar with them by the time they are introduced formally in the second book!

I've encountered plenty of up-bowers just like you describe, and if it's not dealt with, it can persist as an underlying issue affecting the sense of pulse in their playing, and also become a problem in ensemble playing, as they're less aware of how their bowing compares to everyone else.

My suggestion is working at an awareness of bow direction away from the music, in rhythm games, echoing phrases and so on. Marching to a 4/4 rhythm, bowing a loud down-bow G on each down-beat. Repeated down-bow retakes with accents, vs. up-bow retakes with crescendos. 'Conducting' a 2/4 beat by bowing in mid-air. That kind of thing.

And still, even then, lots of reinforcing 'down bow at the beginning of a bar' once back to the music!

Thanks for that - gives me something to work with! I think both of my pupils still aren't very confident with their bowing. That's probably why the boy is still doing the bowing reversed, and while the girl is bowing the right way it's very slow. I've been giving them bowing exercises to try and increase their confidence with using their bows but I'll try and incorporate your ideas

It may simply be that I need to make working on bowing more of a big thing, particularly with complete beginners. One of my pupils (about gr.1 standard) came from a teacher who focussed a LOT on bowing and consequently her pupils all had beautiful straight bows. It kind of left me a bit depressed because I would love to be able to achieve that but wasn't quite sure how she did it. Whenever I brought the subject up a fellow violin teacher who knows both of us just said "Oh she does a lot of work on bowing at the start of lessons". So that clears that up!

I think sometimes when the pupils really start concentrating on the left-hand, the bowing can be forgotten about to a certain extent. When they are "only" playing on open strings at the beginning then there is a bit less to think about so they can really focus on bowing. Bring in the left-hand and suddenly everything is a lot more complicated and bowing can go to pot.

One way I deal with this is to keep going back to the open-string pieces at the beginning of the book and using them as bowing exercises. The children are used to getting a couple of these pieces each week for "revision" as well as bowing exercises such as circles in the air, how slowly can you bow a down-bow competitions, crossing strings in one bow etc.

I also ask them to play their pieces but with no left hand. So in other words they bow the piece as written on the relevant strings but without the left hand. I don't know if I have explained that very well. Taking the example of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - starting on open D - instead of playing the actual tune they would play open strings as follows: DDAAAAA- DDDDDDD- instead of DDAABBA- GGF#F#EED-
That way they can concentrate on the direction of their bow and whether the string crossings are smooth and whether their bow is straight.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. Owain's answer contained good ideas and I agree with him that it does need sorting out otherwise it will bring problems later on.

it drives me nuts when my son "stammers" when playing and re-starts on the wrong bow - how CAN anyone do that?



Like all these ideas. I get my son to go back and play the open string pieces at the start of the book from time to time. But he's now getting secure enough to be able to think about what the bow's doing even when the left hand is working. However I often have to explain to him that he might do better on a certain phrase if he starts half way down (or up) the bow (eg if playing a syncopated passage like quaver crotchet quaver minim, which was today's little challenge) if he's not to run out of bow on the long note. Is it a bloke thing, can't manage to forward plan/parallel process?

Thanks for all the great ideas!

No, not a bloke thing, just a lack of experience thing!
He will get the hang of that with time.

I suppose I was a bit harsh there... but it really reminded my of other son's problems with planning fingering on the piano - I am the world's worst pianist and even I can see when I'm going to run out of fingers!