I bought my piano from a local dealership some 12 years ago. A tuner (partner from the dealership) came annually to tune it - until last year where the realisation dawned on me that he hadn't been keeping it at concert pitch, all this time. I had another tuner in (didn't tell him much) who told me that the piano was both flat and also out of tune.

You can imagine how great I felt about this - I genuinely hadn't noticed, but when he (new tuner) tuned it, it played a dream.

Contacted professional body original dealership is member of - they weren't interested. Wrote letter to original tuner, outlining my disappointment in his alleged 'services' - didn't receive a reply. It seems anyone can rip you off if they can convince you they are a piano tuner, and there is no advocate for customers. (Can you just imagine telling Trading Standards it wasn't tuned properly?)

Hey ho, I live and learn, I move on. Recently I hired a venue at a local church for a recital. Guess what? Same tuner tunes their pianos. I went to check, armed with guitar-tuner - all pianos out of tune and flat - audibly out. Cancelled booking and hired room in another venue with piano tuned by someone else. Now I did broach with the people in the church, about this tuner, and my experience. Met with an extremely defensive attitude - Mr So and So has been tuning our instruments for so many years, and he tunes the organ too, and our organist has always been very happy, and she's a real musician, you know, she teaches the choir, etc, etc.

Now, he had me fooled. Very clever man, very good at customer relations. Charges a lot.

But it does bother me more, the idea of him ripping off a church, than me. People's well-intentioned donations going into his pocked. It is true, he may be doing a good job, and I just happened to be there the week before the annual tuning, and that's why they were out. But it still bothers me. What would you do?

What can I do?

I am not a member of the church.

You could try contacting the Pianoforte Tuners' Association on the following link. The tuner may (or more likely may not!) be a member. Bringing his name to their attention might help prevent him from ripping other people off.

http://www.pianotuner.org.uk/pta64.htm

Regarding the church, you've told then what you know and now it's up to them what they do with that information. You've sowed the seed. Leave them to make their own decision.

It could be something really stupid like his tuning fork is flat with regards to pitch - they don't like physical shocks such as being dropped. Although from what you say, it sounds a bit more than that.

Tuners do vary. When I bought my (secondhand) Yamaha upright back in 2000, it was delivered tuned. I had a local tuner come around a couple of times - tuning was fine, but it did tend to lose pitch after about 3 months. I tried a different tuner (he was tuning the piano we had hired for a concet and as he's local(ish) I asked hom to do mine. When he tunes it, it stays in tune much longer - usually about 9 months.

I'm still looking for a new tuner - the last one who came spent the entire afternoon asking me whether I thought each "twang" was right or not. If I could tell I might train as a tuner myself! He "tuned" all the character out of the instrument, along with the pitch. And he was another "we've always used him, how dare you suggest he might something other than perfect" type.

Stick with your new tuner, as you feel he's doing a good job. Ask him for his business cards. Spread them around among friends and acquaintances.

As someone else says, not much you can do about the church, unless you send them one of your tuner's cards as well, just in case it falls into someone else's hands.

The PTA link is good, but my tuner for example is not on there, and he would be good enough - piano stays in tune etc. So there are tuners who don't subscribe.

It's true to say that one tuner varies from another, and in fact a tuner himself can have off days. I do know that my tuner's piano-tuning knowledge has improved over the years that I've known him (can't really elaborate here, would not be businesslike). It's one of those things that if you find a good tuner you hang on to him/her and spread the word.

The one I use doesn't seem to be on that link either, and I have always been happy with him. The one that the shop my piano came from sent is on there, and I complained to them about him as the piano sounded better before he had been than afterwards. Maybe good tuners don't need to advertise on there.

They do not appear to be members of the Pianoforte Tuners Assoc. The website previously claimed IMIT membership (though as I said, IMIT weren't interested), but that has now been removed. So, they are not regulated by any body that I can see.

Express yourself - it is true that I have told the church, and it is up to them what to do. I can simply leave it. It isn't really my problem. And yet, it's been some weeks and somehow it bothers me. Partly because I don't feel I could use them for recitals.

Tenor viol - last time he tuned, I watched the whole time. He didn't use a tuning fork.

My piano has a strip that can slot between the strings and hammers (it has a central 'practice pedal' as well as the una corda - together they make the piano almost inaudible, useful for late night practice, but I digress). This strip, when in the off position, physically covers some of the tuning pins. Last time he tuned, he didn't remove it. That means, right from the start, he had no intention of turning all the pins. It had been a year since the last tuning. This was not a 'weekly tweak'. The new tuner came, first thing he did was remove the strip so he could access the pins.

I will absolutely stick with the new guy. But I really feel it's not on for someone to go round doing a slapdash job, knowing the general public know no different. He charged me ?120. New guy charged me ?60 for doing a proper job. How does that get to be legal?

I originally looked on the PTA link for a new tuner as my own tuner (who I recommended to my students) has just had to retire due to ill health. He isn't listed on there, but I was happy to recommend him, and my students were always pleased with his work.

I guess this is the pitfall of making our profession non-mandatory in regards to keeping a register of teachers, tuners etc. It wouldn't stop the 'in it for the money' crowd getting through though. I was a registered nurse for 24 years and some of the nurses coming through were appalling in their standards of care etc.

I've been looking at training courses for piano tuners, and may consider going for it as fifty per cent of my students are now without a tuner. They'll have to shop around for themselves now and hopefully they'll find one that I can start recommending.

Interesting, so how does he set his reference pitch? Does he assume he has perfect pitch, or tune relative to something he thinks is "about right"?

My piano is similar. Tuner removes the lid, front, takes off the device that you describe and then gives it a thorough going over. Cost is about GBP50.

Wow! ?120. We pay ?45 for a superb job.

Okay so here is a bit of background then about piano tuning - I'd say this - it doesn't excuse him in this situation, but it's quite possibly still within the bounds of normal practice.....

There is a school of thought in piano tuning which says, strings break if you pull them too hard. This is a nuisance because bedding in a new string means several return trips to ease it into the place it needs to be, so some tuners will let the instrument "drift" down: a lot of musicians resent the cost of tuning pianos and don't want to see the tuner back any time soon, so there is a balance to be found here - does the tuner howk the pianny up to concert pitch from some way south, and have to be called back sooner because the instrument isn't going to stay there that readily, or does the tuner accept a new level for the pitch and tune round that? For establishments in which the piano isn't used in conjunction with other instruments all that much, what is wrong with it being a bit south? In that situation a tuning fork is not so necessary, surely?

The issue of the instrument being out of tune with itself is more problematic - and can also be difficult to assess, since the blighters have to be out of tune with themselves even to be in tune - equal temperament is a compromise . However, the octaves at least must be in tune.

Phew! ?120 is exceedingly expensive. Maybe you're in the middle of London or on a remote island? Mine charges ?55 and is at the top end of the bracket round here.

I can confirm what anacrusis says that strings break if a tuner tries to raise the pitch too much at once and it's best to do it gradually or just to leave it in tune with itself.

My tuner charged the 'official' MPTA rate which I think last time was ?60, though there are others round here cheaper Ive had him for 20 odd years and he deos a good job ( takes just over an hour)

anacrusis has a point - with some pianos they'll never quite come up to concert pitch but will be in tune with themselves. Assuming the OP bought the piano new, however, this should not be the case here.

My old girl is 87 this year - and looking good I must say! Sadly when AMJC gave her a tweak for me a couple of years back the B string below middle C broke and it's taken a good while for the new one to blend in with everything else. I have it tuned once or twice a year depending on the weather (!) and like it just a teensy bit sharp to allow for the inevitable doom of The Central Heating. C and I have the same tuner who is FAB and worth every penny (?50)

Hope the OP's new tuner gets everything sorted soon.

A440ish=Bag x

Anacrusis, I spent many weeks trying to justify his actions (and my paying him for his actions). The piano is in good condition, no rusty strings. The fact is, new tuner got it to concert without snapping any, and without having to return for post-pitch-raise tuning. I had raised the fact with old tuner (some years ago) that I had difficulty using play-along CDs with the piano because it sounded flat. He informed me that CDs are made sharp as part of the production process. I believed him at the time.

I raised the issue of concert pitch with the new tuner, asked him what he normally does. He took one look around the room, and said, "I see you have guitars. Maybe you want to play piano with other instruments. Maybe concert pitch matters to you."

The piano was about 40 cents flat by the time I realised. The old tuner had let this happen, and hadn't even mentioned it to me. Hadn't discussed it with me. Yes, you can tune an instrument flat. But there's no need to tell porkie pies about the tuning of Cd's (e.g the Rockschool tuning track...)

Sorry, I didn't realise such a long time after, I was still so wound up about this!



The octaves were not in tune. They were ringing too fast, the new tuner showed me. I didn't realise they weren't supposed to ring. Specifically he said, if you want to do a slapdash job, at least tune the 3 octaves around middle C, because they is what is played most. Leave the rest. But all the rings were wrong in all the intervals. He is perfectly versed in even temperament.

As I said, the piano was both flat, and out of tune, as are the pianos in my local church.




At least there are legally enforceable standards of care for nurses. In fairness, humans are more important than pianos.

(ex-midwife).




Edinburgh.

Perhaps I should reiterate - I am fine with my piano now (near to concert, and in tune with itself) and happy with my new tuner.

I just feel bad for the church who is still using the old guy.

Good point from Anacrusis. My Yamaha dates to the mid 70s and is built to deal with central heating and it is very stable. But, you're right. If it has drifted south it's possibly difficult to bring it fully back to concert pitch.

True. But there is no need for the tuner to not be open about that. This is a problem with my piano which was in storage for a couple of years. My piano tuner explained the problem and outlined what my options were so that I could make an informed decision to have it tuned below concert pitch, It is about half a semitone out but it is in tune with itself so it doesn't cause me any issues.

Indeed we do. He is fab and lovely and a professional standard organist and pianist himself.

My piano is, I think, a little under A=440 but not much - it's a sweet little 1908 ship's piano and it does beautifully for my needs.

I made my point knowing that there was enough information in the OP to suggest that the subject of it might not be up to scratch - the trouble being there were also points made in the OP which are not necessarily indiciative of poor practice, and it could well be that other tuners might be labelled "rogue" when they were actually doing a reasonable job, by those who'd read this OP.

I'm married to a harpsichord and fortepiano tuner, and know the other side of the coin - that of musicians being resentful of the cost of instrument maintenance and not always being all that considerate of the working conditions of the tuner either - so posted in the interests of balance, particularly after the flurry of similarly outraged replies.

My answer to the original post question is - if you've found someone else who suits you better, use their services instead. But some of what was posted doesn't represent poor practice and shouldn't be represented as such.

Which bits? (I am genuinely interested).

Have you found any? I found this list - http://www.pianotuner.org.uk/pta5.htm - but it says that two out of the three listed are Closed. Is there really only one course in the whole country?

Even in the middle of London, I think Steinway charges at most ?100. It's less if you have a contract with them.

I am sure that there are a few piano tuners who are either incompetent or lazy or both, just as there are in every other profession whether we are talking doctors, carers, teachers, garage mechanics, or builders. And the patient, pupil, customer (or taxpayer) gets ripped off (or worse) partly because they don?t even realise at the time what poor service they have received.

However the good thing now is that when we are dealing with piano tuners (and piano salesman and venue providers for concerts) we can all check exactly what we have been sold. We don?t necessarily need a brilliant musical ear, just a little electronic tuning device (you can even get it as an app for a phone).

We should all carry one, and use it to check every piano, whether we are buying it, renting the venue or having it tuned.

We owe this to any musicians who may be about to play, or even more importantly be accompanied on, the piano in question.

In the past I have seen young brass players simply unable to tune their instrument to a way out-of-tune piano. I have seen young string players tune their instrument to said piano but it has totally distracted them during their performance. In both cases their performances have ended in tears.

Now I check pianos with my pocket tuner first, and if it is way out of tune my child does not play at all and we say why.

If more people did this at the church that ten left thumbs was trying to talk to, they would have to listen and do something about it

Just a bit off topic.

I purchased my U3 from a dealership and, at the time, their usual tuner was off sick so they employed another.

He stuck his business labels -not just one- all around inside the piano case and,worst of all, stuck a big sticker on the lacquered part underneath the lid stating when it needed to be tuned next.

I was furious.Phoned him but wife answered and never heard back from him. Then i complained to the shop. They got rid.

Dang! That's what gives piano a bad name.




It really bothers me that there are people out there who have donated the church thousands of pounds of their savings, perhaps from their will. These are good, new pianos, two of them at least. They are flat and out of tune.

Now, I can't know when they were last tuned. There may be others things I am not aware of. I am sure the church feel in good faith that they are having them looked after properly.

I already gave my reasons for why some of the tuner's actions don't necessarily represent poor practice.
If the church is happy, leave it be - it's up to them to decide what sort of service they want. They spend their cash as they choose, and once you've given your opinion, it's not your problem any more.

Mine uses an electronic tuner.

Oh, I see, the thing about not necessarily tuning to concert? Well, yes, I see your point. I did consult with many tuners before coming to the conclusions I came to.

The thing is, I bought the piano from the same man, and he tuned it ever since. I bought it in good condition, so there really is no earthly reason why it couldn't be in concert, as it now is. And if there was a reason, I would expect to be told about it.

Plus, the piano wasn't in tune, this was verified by another tuner (not even the octaves). The new tuner was quite shocked, but very careful not to disrespect the first guy. He simply had no explanation, but did apologise on behalf of the profession.

And then, there is the fact that I wrote to the old tuner, expressing my disappointment (politely, but firmly) and I haven't heard back. If there was something I'm missing, if there was an 'I'm from the school that does it like this, and I didn't realise you wanted that', then why wouldn't he simply write back to me? He is not a teenager who doesn't know how to write. They keep track of all their customers. They know exactly who I am. The only explanation I can see is that I have caught him out, and he is too ashamed to reply.

When we spoke on the phone (before the letter) he did assure me the piano had been sold in concert pitch. They sell all their pianos in concert. I think I probably believe this. So he tunes in the shop to concert, just not in houses.

I am sure your husband is a hard-working professional, and I am sure he receives regular flak from customers with unrealistic expectations, who blame him for breaking strings, or expect a pitch raise to cost just a normal tuning. I meet them all the time. Sorry - got to go.

I'm lucky enough to have a great tuner. He is very ancient though, so in the next few years I'm expecting to have to find another.

If you're that bothered, you could try to find out who the Treasurer of the PCC is and write to him/her to say a) their tuner appears to charge double the going rate (though of course he might charge the church less (per piano) if there is more than one and b) they are potentially losing income because you (and possibly others) will not hire the church for concerts while the pianos are out of tune.

Once you've done that, leave it to them. It might be different if you were a member of the congregation but it's their money and their decision.

Soccermom, writing a letter is not such a bad idea. I think I'll give this a try. I'll address it to the organist. I'll try writing, and if I can manage something that is decent without being libellous, I'll send it. With a letter, at least I'll get to the end of my sentence without someone saying, 'oh, but he's always tuned our pianos....'

I know probably the right thing to do here is to butt out. But...

It might soften it a bit if you mention that the reason you cancelled was due to the pianos being out of tune.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think my occasional custom matters much to them. They have many events and organisations that hire their premises and I am only a very small pawn.