????????????

No show?

Large G&T. Keep breathing

Deep breaths and let it out slowly!

Hope it's not that bad but there seems to be quite a few tricky situations about at the moment...

Maybe I was just spoiled by the excellent teacher I had. It seems that there are as many nightmare teachers as there are parents!

Present company excluded, of course!

Not met any nightmare teachers but have met some lazy ones.

C'mon then, what's happened? Your rant kind of stopped short!

[edited by moderators to remove quote of deleted post]

There are also lots of teachers who are just unable to see the effect their behaviour has on the pupil or parent.

I don't need any of those caps as plenty of forum members know, like and respect my daughter. I don't have to prove to someone who is being completely judgemental that the drive for music comes from my child.

I am in a nightmare situation with one of daughters teachers. I've never been totally satisfied for lots of reasons but there is little I can do about it. I have discussed it before on the forum and won't go into too much detail. I've always thought they could give more gudance and support in the lesson and have never been toitally convinced by them. I thought it was my problem because one of our other teachers is so fantastic (couldn't imagine anyone better) another is a good teacher and incredibly supportive. The two instruments where my daughter has technical issues the teachers have taken her playing apart and she's grown even though they are not her main instrument. I was still prepared to think that I was being a little unfair on the lesson that wasn't working as well, even though it was on the instrument that got the lions share of the practice and held the most interest.

At the beginning of this academic year they did something which generated the nightmare we are now in. It was not in response to anything we've done. Unfortunately the damage caused and the uncertainty created won't go away.

They also unwittingly gave us a get out route. It involves having another teacher on the same instrument on an adhoc basis. I can tell you this is not something I wanted to do for lots of reasons. We don't have the money which is a major issue but having had one lesson it's really brought home that my initial suspicions were totally founded.

Whilst the vast majority of teachers do their best for their pupils not everyone with the label teacher does. It's not to do with skill or experience it sometimes just a choice they make. In the same way not all parents are pushy/arrogant/unsupportive.

For me unsupportive is a new one as it's not somehting anyone who knows me would ever for one second think. I dare say I've been considered pushy in the past, but luckily it has never lasted long as people get to know me

I was so happy when I made that post because I'd just got back from a lesson, that I went in at the end of, to catch my daughter trading 8's with someone I'd never have dreamed of her doing that with. Arrogant ehh?

Why is it that there are any number of threads dedicated to annoying incidents with parents, but someone dares to try to let off steam about a music teacher in the parents forum and by post 9 there are really spiteful comments by teachers? The OP was very discrete about the problem, but clearly needed to vent. It is a shame that some forum teachers don't show the same restraint. Scooby Doo, Louise H etc were able to be supportive, but it seems some others cannot. One can't help wondering if the unsupportive ones are feeling guilty about the way they treat pupils and their parents.

Hear hear! I don't know what provoked that attack on Notmusimum, but it was totally uncalled for.

Eek, sorry if I've caused trouble. I didn't want to divulge after it started to get heated on here but thanks for the support.

I am utterly lost! What is this about? With the "moderating" its just made it more intriging but still havent a clue.

If we ALL can "rant" about parents why cant we moan about teachers? Come on lets get real there are some seriously c-r-a-p teachers out there.

*sigh*

As my previous was deleted (I think I included the offending post) I'll stick it here instead and hope this one stays put

Well, I am the opposite of lost thanks to this thread. So it helped someone!

Sometimes you have to read something from someone else on a topic to make it clear that vascillating oneself is not the answer to a problem situation. Clearly my parent advice to the above is to act - get the money if at all possible and even if you cant, still act. But it wasnt so clear to me in my own situation.

We have a "problem" teacher too - nice woman but wrong teacher in this situation and technically no improvements to speak of at over long period. DD is her most advanced pupil. Never a great idea at this age. Very static and its not lack of work, its lack of instruction. DD likes her, loves her dog, likes the lack of rigour in instructions provided, its only a second iinstrument, DD has Aspergers and gets stressed thinking about changes etc etc......and so I have pushed it to the back of my mind. Had a conversation about setting detailed goals short and long term, mentioned Philip Johnson website and books was really useful for other instrument hoping that this would focus both of them and give her a source of information. Increased lesson time. Nothing changed. This post brought the matter back to where it should be - the front of my mind. So have emailed a few people and got a couple of recommendations to suss out. Time for a move but it needs careful research, planning and a long lead in time advertising campaign to get DD on board.

Well, I'd like to say thanks to EdGJ for moderating but not completely removing the thread. So many times things have got a bit heated and then a perfectly useful discussion has disappeared entirely, and a valuable thread has been lost.

GMc has been galvanised - result!!

It's always been the same on this forum that teachers think they have a right to moan about awful parents who push them around. Parents can't moan though when they are not getting the service that they are paying for.

Looks like I've found the exit to our situation though it's going to come at a price. It's going to cause problems with other half as he won't uderstand why but I've got to do right by daughter.

Really? I seem to recall plenty of discussions either way, but then I post in various roles - student, teacher, parent, so I don't focus on any particular category of threads! (Hoorah for the View New Posts button!)

I don't think people deliberately set out to "parent bash" or "teacher bash" but remarks that are made about a specific situation can spill over into people taking offence on behalf of a whole group and that's when it gets nasty...

Mostly parents support teachers when they are in a difficult situation without making a judgement.

Maybe as parents when looking for teachers we should look at our own criteria for suitability, rather than just going on reputation, qualifications, geographic location etc.
I know I would be prepared to travel miles if it was the only way of accessing the most suitable tuition.
There are good and bad teachers, the same as there are parents.
We all have our opinions and sites like this are here for us to voice them.
Part of my criteria is foremost instrumental specialist, extensive professional performance experience , knowledge of education of music and ability to offer advice and guidance.
Not important is the ability to accompany in exams.
Personally I look for the higher musical qualifications rather than grade 8 and feel this is not a level to offer tuition. But this is my opinion.

My intention was not to be nasty as I am not a nasty person in any way shape or form.I just wanted to make a point!I am rather surprised that my comments were taken off this forum as the editor/moderator assumed I was being nasty when in fact I was being sarcastic which in my opinion is very different!It seems like we as teachers arent allowed to make comments which might touch raw nerves,yet I have read comments on here that seem to be always on the side of the parent.mmmmmmmmmmmm I WONDER WHY?p.s I am not shouting at anyone as I was accused of in previous messages it is just that I often forget TO TAKE THE CAP LOCK OFF HEHE.

Are you being serious?!

Onemoretime,

Although I agree with your criteria I think you should be wary of conservatoire profs who never teach young children. Our experience is that they have no idea how to teach that well as they've never experienced difficulties themselves, they often do not understand that an eleven year old will take instruction and practice in a different way to an eighteen year old.

Yes a teacher has to have good credentials, but they also have to be good at teaching children.

recollect, things are likely to be from a parent's perspective in the parents' forum.

Fullofwind I agree that being an expert is not enough, there has to be an ability to communicate in an appropriate way, which will of course differ between different types of students. A skilled teacher will have several ways of making the same point in case the first falls on deaf ears.

Onemoretime I wholeheartedly agree that a teacher needs to be way past grade 8 before starting to teach.

Your post was not sarcastic, to be honest it didn't upset me and don't be of the opinion that I was responsible for it's removal. You cannot deny you were rude though I actually found the caps lock gaff ruder.

What you are saying is totally untrue. I've been on this forum for more than 6 years and throughout that time there has always been more parent bashing than teacher bashing.

I have no time for parents who are rude to teachers and some of the behaviour is completely out of order. Nor have I time for teachers who don't do the job properly or who think they can dolly along and the parent won't eventually realise. I would say both these things happen in equal measure.

You will get frustration from parents when things aren't going right those of us who are not musical will look for the reason. Sometimes teacher/pupil relationships break down for other reasons than inconsideration on anyones part. Teachers probably have other teachers to share concerns with parents are often not that lucky.

I agree with others that the most qualified people don't always make the best teachers though sometimes they do .

The right teacher can be a very personal thing and if you have a good teacher on one instrument it makes it more difficult to settle for second best on another.

My post to you notmusimum WAS sarcastic and not meant to be rude,its just that YOU have taken it to mean rude!I fully agree with lots of things you have said notmusimum and I understand and accept Andantes point that the comments came from a parental angle.

But of course we all know teachers of any subject that fundamently are lacking in teaching abilities. I had two esteemed professors at Uni that made me cry with boredom even though they were experts in what was supposed to be my favorite modules. Droning voices, no ability to impart knowledge, oh they were tiresome and tideous compared to the other tutors who held our attention and shared their enthusiasm of the subject .

In the case of music teachers and young children its real hard to get it right. I agree its very personal. One of my daughters had a viola teacher that had every paper qualification in the book, was a former child progidy, well known composer.long line of string players in the family etc., but she couldnt stand him! To her mind he was too dippy, always asking "where are we supposed to be now", as far as she as concerned he should know! He forgot she was coming, even left her standing outside in the rain once and he just irritated her. She wanted someone more focused on teaching HER! Not composing in his head whilst teaching her. And worse in her eyes he accompanied her on an accordian not a proper piano! I liked him but I had to accept he wasnt good for HER. The new viola teacher was incredibly strict with a very focused timetable. My daughter loved her, as she knew where she was supposed to be and what she was supposed to aim for. She responded to organised focused teaching.

I too have been on this forum for several years and would completely agree that there are far more negative posts on parents than on teachers. I dont know why this is but keen parents are often labled pushy, yet when you read between the lines "non-musical" parents, are simply (in my mind) desperately trying to be supportive. Often they are parents who are excited at their childs musical skills and dont actually realise that they are just standard and not that amazing, and boy do they get bashed on this forum Many leaving in disgust! Yet other parents do have children that are very very good and they want to find a way to support them to the level where said child can be professional.

Some parents are chasing music places and why not? The educational environment today has motivated many in this direction. So they do want to move through grades a little faster so that they have the necessary paperwork to enable their child to have a shot at a music place. This requires a cooperative teacher. It can be done It has been done. if said teacher doesnt want to, parent will find another one but this doesnt mean they are a "bad parent". Some parents are hoping for funding and these more often than not require a specific grade with a distinction, which means they want the child to move faster than teacher may have originally planned. Some parents have to deal with genuine objectional teachers who are simply jealous of the effort, time and energy that said parent is puttin in, and do all they can to put a spoke in the wheel and I have seen this and heard this in the Staff Room! Such teachers literally sneer at the parents attempts to support their child's music progress. And yet other music teachers will go out of their way to support a child.

So we agree that all the teachers are different and while I can comprehend the moaning about some parents, surely we, parents can be allowed to have a bit of a moan about the odd "not very good" teacher o nthis forum without a backlash

If we are being sarcastic perhaps we can make use of the clickable smilies as sometimes such an emotion is lost in the written word - lack of vocal tone and facial features is a hazard of forums

This is a fair point, but I wonder if this is not because there are a far greater number of teachers posting than parents? Certainly in the early years there were very few parents posting and I'd say it's only been in the last couple of years that there's been far greater use of the parents' forum. A quick look at the 100 posts at the top of the teachers' forum reveals that just 2% are questions related to directly to parents. OK, some topics get onto this via other routes, but even so, it seems a relatively small number (and even then, I don't think they're all bashing). It's worth remembering that whilst teachers might post about parents, they're not posting about 'all' parents, and that includes the parents who post here. I have no problem with parents posting about teachers when it is appropriate.

Certainly, when I've posted about a parent issue (which is incredibly rarely) I've always tried to phrase it in as nice a way as possible. I posted recently about the issue I'd had with a parent sitting in on lessons. I hope no one took that as a rant as it was certainly not intended in that way. It was simply giving a little background and seeking the advice of other teachers (and indeed, anyone who posted) as to what might be done about it.

I suppose that I come back to the same thing over and over again, and that is mutual respect. I've always tried, as far as is humanly possible, to phrase my posts in such a way that they don't offend (I may have fallen short in the past, but we're all human, we do our best, and even then, no offence would have been intended). As far as I'm concerned, teaching and learning is a collaboration. Teacher, pupil and parent all have a part to play and they all have something to contribute to the process. We all have something to learn from each other, and the fact that we are able to post in topics across the forum as a whole, is, I think, of great benefit. I don't agree with everything everyone says but I respect it. Sometimes I might post that I don't agree, and sometimes not - as far as I'm concerned, everyone's opinion is valuable, and should be respected as such. Just because I might disagree with something, it's not necessarily a criticism, but simply another opinion which, at the end of the day, can be taken or ignored.

It is sad that in the past a small minority of members have chosen, for one reason or another, to launch totally uncalled for personal attacks on other members or groups of members; some of these have turned into what can only be described as personal vendettas. In any community, there will always be periods of harmony and discord (excuse pun!) but it is respect for each individual which matters most in the end.

and where there IS discord let us bring harmony


I use another forum which uses the acronym PFB which stands for perfect first born, I suspect that some parents possibly see their musical offspring in this light...perhaps it is worth considering that the experienced teacher may have met more than one gifted student in their career?

From a teacher's point of view, I couldn't agree more. I'd go further, and encourage those parents who aren't happy, and who don't have a suitable dialogue with the teacher so that things will change, to vote with their feet. From our side, we've all been in positions where there has been a conflict of personalities, of intentions, of ambitions, or so forth.

Maybe it's more difficult for a parent to acknowledge that the same can be the case for their child's relationships with other people (I don't have the experience to state otherwise!), but it is perfectly normal.

I have always tried to be reasonable about teachers complaints about pushy parents. I totally accept that it's a teachers choice to have parents in the lesson or not and parents should abide by that decision.

In the past many of the pushy parent complaints were merely parents trying to gather knowledge and the teacher not communicating. Thankfully over the last few years they have declined and I haven't noticed anything like them for sometime.

I think most teachers would agree that some teaching practices are poor in the same way parents would agree some parental actions are unacceptable. I know in the past there has been much discussion about 3 pieces for a year and an exam being unacceptable it's something as a parent I'd find frustrating. Poor time keeping is another issue I'm sure we can all agree on or lack of technical work.

I've also noticed teachers expressing concerns about new students lacking in skills. sometimes parents will notice this too especially if it's a second instrument or they have other musical experience on some level.

Wow,very powerful statements from the last few messagees if there is such a word!I am sure that we all agree that parents/teachers/students can be challenging at times and may I state for the very last time that my comments were sarcastic in a humerous way,and not an attack on anyone who reads this forum.

I can only speak for myself but I've never been of the opinion my child was gifted musically. I'm not sure in reality many forum parents do. They may start out as excited at how fast their child can progress initially (it scared me more than anything cos I didn't understand it at all) but eventually most end up realising it takes work guidance and support from the pupil/teacher/parent triangle.

Personally I'd hate it if someone built my child up, telling someone they are good is no use to them at all, so experienced teacher who put her in her place would be fine by me. Providing they were giving her the right support to move forward.

For us it's always been about helping daughter to be the best that she be can in a very personal way (not compared to someone else). It's probably much easier for musical families to achieve than non-musical ones. The whole thing still frightens me and I worry about the decisions I make especially in these crucial few months. Whilst getting where she wants to go is totally in my daughters hands I still have to make decisions on what to fund and how much chauferring I'm prepared to do.


I can't wait until she's settled somewhere to be totally free of it.

You seem to me notmusimum to be the model parent who supports,encourages.finances and helps in every way possible.Its a great pity that all parents are not like you!Dont understand your comments about being totally free of it?

Hi onemoretime,

I'm curious to know why you feel grade 8 isn't a suitable level to offer tuition?,
I teach piano and have done for a while now. I'm working on my grade 8 practical at the moment and grade 6 theory. I would hope to have acheived both by next spring at the very latest.

All of my parents were told of my level before I took on any pupils (I have 14). I categorically told them that I'm not at the top of my game and that I'm still studying.
No one had a problem with that.
I'm currently on the Being an Effective Teacher Course that the ABRSM offer and I'm having excellent feedback on my assignments.

Now here's my opinion!, I think it's good to continue with personal, professional development. I think it might be rather easy to attain some wonderful qualifications and rest thereafter.

Here's a little point to ponder on, although it's regarding a different subject. My daughter who is in 2nd yr at high school has muddled through maths since primary school, she's never grasped it completely and she had as much support at home as we could give. When she started high school, I raised my concerns and was told that the maths dept/teacher would ensure she understood the lessons. Her teacher took great delight in rhyming off his qualifications at parents night last year however couldn't seem to convey his skills to my daughter. I then paid good money for a private tutor who was a DOCTOR of maths, and low and behold, she was still none the wiser!. Now any normal parent would, by this point, be possibly accepting that perhaps it was just my child and that was the way things were going to be in this subject.
However she started 2nd year and has a young teacher who hasn't been teaching very long, doesn't appear to have any airs and graces about her, and would you believe it, my daughter was practically in tears because suddenly she understands the subject. She describes it as "everything has fallen into place", She cannot believe that this teacher speaks to her in a way that she understands!
Just for the record my daughter doesn't have any learning difficulties!

So why do you believe that only those and such as those are worthy of teaching?.

By the way 10 of my 14 pupils have all sat exams grade 1, 2 & 3 and with the exception of 1, they all have merit passes, one who missed distinction by 2 marks! Am I really doing that badly?

Also, I perform every weekend with a band in various venues, I sing, play alto saxophone and keyboards, and have done for over 20 years. Does that make me suitable in the extensive professional performance experience department that you speak of?

It's a lot easier to believe that the teacher at the conservatoire or the teacher with all the paper qualifications will automatically make your kid the best musician but it is not the case! They may also make the kid miserable in their learning as the poster above says.

It's a lot more work for parents to make the (sometimes) enormous efforts needed to find the right teacher for their kid and to recognise when that teacher needs to be changed at some point down the line too. Most teachers will work for most kids most of the time. The exceptional need more care in matching up student and teacher - either because they are very gifted or because they are very disadvantaged in some way that inhibits learning.

Although I have a lot of kids of my own I have taught hundreds more - I don't know everything by any means. But my experience IS worth something! So I am glad when parents seek me out, even if I don't end up teaching their kid. Nor do I feel bothered if they don't want to buy what I am selling - I don't feel personally attacked and neither should the parent in a situation where the teacher/student combination does not work for their kid.

No I blunder along like everyone else and get things wrong in just the same way. I've made mistakes along the way but most of them have damaged my reputation rather than my child. As the parent it's my duty to make the tough calls and I'm prepared to do that for my children if required. Usually things have worked out the best for her in the end.

It takes an enormous amount of time effort and money to support my daughter (I am aware it's the same for others). Until she knows what's going to be happening to her next year I have to keep supporting. regardless of emotional or financial costs (big problem at the moment). Once there is a resolution then I won't have to carry that burden in the same way.

Recollect I don't know if you realise but my daughter is 17 and a few months away from Consevatoire auditions. Once she's off to Conservatoire or Uni then I can have my life back. She knows what she wants but there is nothing to say she will get it. It's only in the last few days we've had more idea as to where we stand and what work needs to be done to give her the best chance.

I will miss her when she goes but no more chauferring in the same way and there will be time to persue my own hobbies, classical music is not one of them.

I was having a similar coversation elsewhere recently. Is it better to stick with school peri, who teaches a couple of instruments, so the one my daughter plays is probably her second instrument, and I have no idea of her qualifications, or to search out the best specialist teacher I can outside school? My view is that the school peri is the best teacher for L, because she is the only adult I have ever known L have an animated conversation with. She comes home and tells me they have discussed all sorts of things totally unrelated to music, but my uncommunicative, shy child is clearly getting huge amounts out of the lesson. And seems to be learning to play an instrument too, but in a way I'm not so bothered about that. After all why do we want them to have music lessons, it is not usually because we want them to be professional musicians.

I can see why that happens it's the security of the institution. parents feel like someone has their back covered. Personally having expereinced both I'd rather have a solid private teacher. Paper qualifications have never really been my thing the ability to support, guide and empathise is much more important.

I do though think there is a big difference in not having those higher level qualifications on an instrument the teacher has been taught themselves and has experience of than one they teach without any of that detail.

In light of andante post it's more of a problem if the child wants to study music post 18 than if they don't.

Different perspective here - I'm about to switch Son No.2 (for clarinet lessons) away from school peri onto a temporary arrangement with my own sax teacher, who doesn't normally teach clarinet (though he did take it as a 2nd or 3rd study instrument at music college). The arrangement is to tide us over until he goes to secondary school in about 15 months time, and we have a clearer idea of how our daily timetable is going to change [there are other things altering for us over the next couple of school years as well, so lots up in the air].

School peri is not a clari specialist either, so you could say - why make the change now, rather than doing it as part of the change to high school? But I'm increasingly unhappy with the approach taken by the current teacher (largely unmitigated diet of exam pieces, plus other factors), whereas I know my own teacher will be fab at dealing with core skills - tonguing, fingerwork, breathing - and will also introduce Son No.2 to some more interesting repertoire. Plus he is already teaching Son No.2 piano and they get on really well. So I can see big pluses in the change, even though it will only be temporary, and even though it will mean 2 changes rather than 1 (since we will need to find another teacher in due course).

As notmusimum says, the best we can do as parents is muddle through

Reflecting more about choosing my own teacher but hopefully helpful.

I think the ideal teacher has to combine two different but equally important skills neither of which is necessarily reflected in the current qualifications.

1. They need to technically know their stuff - e.g. they need to know what is "good technique" on their instrument, how to recognise (and fix) poor technique, including issues that they personally haven't had to deal with, a knowledge of the repertoire of the instrument.

2. They need the skills to be able to teach - they need to be able to communicate their knowledge effectively, build rapport with the pupil, inspire them to learn etc.

Having either one missing leads to problems. A lot of examples quoted here seem to be around teachers that have knowledge but can't teach. This is an easy one to spot as it becomes immediately apparent, lessons aren't enjoyable, you don't build rapport with the teacher.

But I think having teaching skills without knowledge is a bit more of a problem as it can take a long time to reveal itself (especially as a beginner). It often doesn't manifest itself for a few years when you reach a plateau that you just can't get beyond because of a fundamental problem in technique that your teacher doesn't have the skill to recognise, or the teacher is unable to identify suitable repertoire for you. The lessons become increasingly frustrating and as a pupil you wonder if it is just you and whether you are really suited to this instrument. But you don't want to change teachers because your teacher is really nice and you get on with them so well......This was the case with my first oboe teacher and I ended up stopping lessons.

So while I agree that qualifications are not the be all and end all. So someone with "only" Grade 8 may actually have a very sound understanding of technique and the instrument and be perfectly qualified to teach but equally some won't. It is very difficult as pupil though to gauge whether you are being taught the right things and whether you are developing good technique which is why people tend to look for evidence of higher qualifications. But, as has been said, teaching skills are needed, but these should really be AS WELL AS, but not INSTEAD OF technical competence on the instrument.

I probably wouldn't employ a teacher that did not have some sort of teaching diploma, and would definitely not if they hadn't achieved grade 8 in their instrument. After all, I wouldn't send my child to a school where the teachers were not qualified, nor would I go and see a doctor who had not qualified - not that that would happen of course.

Does that mean a teacher with a teaching qualification is good? Well not necessarily but I'm sure there are plenty good teachers out their with qualifications so why would I pick a teacher who hadn't even reached grade 8?

I've also read on here that once you get to grade 8, especially on piano, you are just starting to really play and up until then you are learning.

The main difference is that doctors have to be qualified - it's the law. This is not the case for instrumental teachers, so I don't buy into that one. It's impossible to compare the two - as you quite rightly say, it wouldn't happen.

All you parents must be very astute because in 11 years teaching and about 200 pupils later, I've yet to be asked about my qualifications

This is the issue that caused us extensive problems - now remedied thankfully - but nevertheless which should not have arisen in the first place.

The problem, when your children are starting out and you are clueless as a parent and think it doesn't matter who teaches them, is that you don't know how your child is going to take to the instrument and what your child might want to do in the future. And then the initial teaching does become important retrospectively.


That's because we look you up on the internet!

Some of the best instrumental teachers I've had the good fortune to work with have had no teaching qualifications. (Nor do I...)

Actually when I was a school teacher in secondary school I taught a number of subjects that I had no more than a GCSE in! Quite commonplace, especially in science.

So although I have a degree and a PGCE, they may not be in the subject in which I am teaching your children!

Meanwhile I am now teaching singing and piano with no diplomas in music but far more subject knowledge than I ever had teaching biology (I'm a physicist!). In fact a lot of the Physics I taught was stuff I hadn't covered myself but I had the skills to research them before hand.

Of course my lack of music diplomas are not because I have failed them, just that I haven't sat them. So my abilities could be way beyond them! Since none of my students or their parents have ever asked about my qualifications then I see the acquisition of them as my own personal targets rather than a requirement to teach.

I am working towards getting them, but only for my own peace of mind.

Ah, but I could put anything I wanted on the internet - I mean no one actually checks (and actually, in many places I don't advertise my qualifications).

Due to having redaction by moderators I now have no idea what this argument is about. Allow me to say two things, which may or may not be in some way constructive:

1. If you have a problem with a teacher you can just leave. Of course, if you have signed a contract you may be bound to pay for a certain number of lessons. It's up to you whether you want to give a period of notice or just lose the money you owe on the contracted lessons. If you feel that the teacher is at fault you could see what grounds you have for bringing an action for rescission of contract. There are so many good music teachers out there that you don't have to stick with one with whom you have a problem.

When I was the same age as notmusimum's daughter and was auditioning for music colleges I had a very good teacher who had been a principal in one of the most prestigious London orchestras and on her advice I went and got extra teaching from one of the professors at the RAM. Receiving tuition side by side from an excellent orchestral playing and a college professor who is also one of the most famous chamber musicians in London worked absolutely fine. Another of my teacher's pupils, who in the end got into the RCM, just went and found herself another teacher without any discussion with her main teacher and this is what led to problems, namely, the cessation of her studying with her main teacher. It all worked out fine for her in the end, but this is not the way to go about it.

2. I would be very surprised if I found myself employing somebody with only grade VIII as a teacher. Looking back over my teachers in the past for my main instruments I was taught by two professors from London music colleges, both of them noteworthy chamber musicians, one of them also with a small solo career and a major music administration career, as well as being taught by the aforesaid ex-principal from one of the top London orchestras. Before that I had a couple of teachers who were not well known. One of them I know had GRSM and LRAM, the other, I have no idea what her qualifications were. On my second instrument one of my teachers had studied at the Guildhall and the Royal Conservatory of The Hague and has an international performing career, another studied at Oxford and again at The Hague, another at Exeter, the IoE, and the Guildhall, and I also had a handful of lessons from somebody who is reckoned by many to be the greatest living performer on the instrument, so I shan't say too much lest I give away who I'm talking about! My first ever teacher on my second instrument had an MMus from an American university. I also tried my hand at guitar and was taught by Christopher Stell LRAM ProfCertHons DipRAM ARAM, now a professor at the RCM, and I took piano lessons late in the day from a woman who had graduated from the RAM. I would say that it was probably rather a good thing that I got to study with so many distinguished musicians, but on the other hand none of them managed to get me into a music college, so maybe it just goes to show after all...! Even so, were I looking for a teacher now I would be looking for somebody with good qualifications and professional performing experience. In fact, I am thinking about taking lessons again on my main instrument and have a possible teacher in mind, somebody with BA, MusB, and MMus degrees, plus further postgraduate study, and a professional chamber music career as well as many years' experience in teaching.

Wow Jonathan, what an experience you've had.

But I think you'd agree that your bog standard primary school beginner isn't interested in teaching of that pedigree. If you just take the number of G1 Piano exams taken each year and compare with the number of diplomas then you'll see that there must be many piano students in the country being taught by diploma-less teachers.

If we banned teachers without a diploma then there'd be even less teachers and even more disappointed potential students. I have a waiting list of 18 as it is!! The supply and demand balance would go beserk!

Of course as you approach a certain level then a certain class of teacher is required (not necessarily paper qualified mind) but for most parents of small children it's not top of their list

I started learning at age 4 with a teacher who "only" had Grade 8 but was experienced at teaching young children. I moved on to other teachers, and my current teacher is conservatory-trained with many years of performing and teaching behind her. I had different teachers at different points in my musical education and benefited from all of them.

Absoutely agree. The vast majority of students who take up lessons will never have access to the type of experienced teacher JonathanQuinn has had the good fortune to come across. When I first learnt flute (my third instrument at that point) I was taught by a brass peri who entered me for grade 5 and then could go no further. We just didn't have the expertise in a small town in NZ.

As a parent I want someone who can inspire my children to learn and progress, and if the current teacher has reached the limit of their ability and my children want to move on to someone more experienced we will do so.

As an adult taking piano lessons at an advanced level of course I want someone with more than grade 8 as otherwise they would have no more experience or technical ability than I do.

As a piano teacher, primarily beginners, I think I have a wealth of experience to offer through 10 years of working with youngsters in musicianship and pre-school music classes, along with years of peri flute teaching. Grade 8 is just a starting point for me as I intend to continue my studies and by the time I have, say, an LRSM or LTCL in piano I would then be willing to take on more advanced pupils.