I have been a member of a small Arts Council Orchestra for nearly a year now (enjoying it very much) and am aware that I need to 'step it up a bit' regarding practicing at home.

I have a teacher for Oboe and my usual routine is to spend about half an hour on scales/technical exercises and then another half hour + on pieces. If I have the time/energy after that then I usually tag about 20mins on the end to go through the current orchestral pieces. Alot of them are fairly straightforward (2nd Oboe) and some are more difficult and I spend time working out the rhythms and best fingerings. Alot of the time at orchestra it is the counting rests which requires alot of concentration especially if it is a fast piece.

The other evening for the first time I was the only oboe and it made me realize how much I was 'leaning' on my fellow oboists and that I need to be more confident with each entry. So I came to the conclusion that I need to do alot more focused orchestral practice and wondered how everyone else practices this on top of usual teacher/exam type practice. Do you alternate days or do half and half? and how exactly do you practice your line, especially with lots of long rests?

I spend time listening to the music with my part (bassoon) and working out obvious cues before my entries in terms of other instruments which are playing - typically but not exclusively they will be other wind parts or horns. Sometimes you get good cues in the individual parts but sometimes you don't so it's good to write in 'clarinet' or 'horn' etc as a reminder. I sometimes sing along or "der, der, der" with the rhythm because it helps internalise what needs to be played. Some cues are not always easy to hear when you are sitting in the orchestra rehearsal at full volume!

I also spend time listening to the music with a full score because it helps to locate the big tutti entries, which are usually less of an issue in terms of coming in if you have a long rest, and also to work out how different parts fit together. I'm lucky because there is a music library local to me so I can usually get hold of any score I want without too much problem.

In terms of counting rests, I have a system of counting bars in with my left hand fingers starting from my little finger and will count in groups of 5 - my little finger is 1, 6, 11 etc although it's still possible to lose count when you're counting 20+ bars of rest! I specifically count the rests as they are printed in the score so if you have 8 bars rest followed by another 8 bars, I'll count each of these separately rather than count 16 because I find it easier to keep my visual place with the part, if that makes sense. I prepare to come in a couple of bars before the entry so and breathe a couple of beats early so I'm ready to blow on time - our conductor is frequently shouting "anticipate" - "wind - you're late/sounding late"! - or similar such comments!

I also practice specific passages for fingering, notes, rhythm but in isolation. I'm sure I could think of some more things but about to have pupils arriving.

I tend to just tag 5-10 minutes on to the end of my usual practice to look at tricky bits for orchestra. I usually find there's a couple of bits in each piece that need a bit of focussed work in terms of sorting out notes/ fingering.

In terms of practising entries- if I'm having trouble with this I'll try and follow my part while listening to a recording, or video on You Tube. The better you know the piece the easier it is to work out where you are and even write notes on your score - e.g. if you have a set of 20 bars rest and know that a key flute solo occurs at bar 13 it can help you pick up if you've lost count. Sometimes I'll play my part along with a recording/ vid which can be quite fun!

my method for counting bars is similar to Louise H's though I count in groups of 10 always starting with my left hand. It does get easier with practice and experience.

Thanks for replies Louise H and flobiano, certainly some pieces are alot easier/enjoyable than others! hopefully as time goes by I will get more and more skilled I have been doing the finger counting but will use the 'anticipate' thought a bit more and maybe need to pencil in more cues.

I do very little on orchestra pieces. As I'm having lessons I've usually more than enough to practice anyway and I know that it's going to be at the right level. As I improve I gradually manage more orchestra stuff.
Some parts would need a long time doing a lot of steady practice to get anywhere near up to speed.
As for entries I learn those in rehearsal.

I'm no longer playing in an orchestra but I did it a lot in college. Like others have suggested here, I spent a lot of time learning the music around my part. That meant listening to it lots, sometimes with the conductor's score. I tried to get to the point where all I had to do was listen for a cue four or eight or so bars before my entry.

I would find it quite easy to spend most of the time that I have for practicing on orchestra (and other ensemble) music. But there's too much that I need to practice for my lessons to be able to do that. One of the things that I now do in rehearsals is try to prioritise what needs to be practiced - if I can, I make a marking on the part to make sure that I remember which bits to do.

Things that end up being high priority include:

* anything very exposed (not terribly frequent for violas!)

* difficult bowing patterns

* bits where I can tell in the rehearsal that I'm playing out of tune or getting the rhythm wrong

* bits with lots of accidentals where I just can't quite sight-read fast enough

* anything where I'm aware that I'm struggling to play up to speed (which might be because I just can't take in the notes fast enough, because there are difficulties like nasty string crossings or simply that it is faster than I'm comfortable playing)

* bits where I can tell in the rehearsal that I've got to spend some time thinking about suitable fingering

Things that are very low priority include:

* stuff I can play perfectly well already

* bits which are so much beyond my ability that no amount of practice is going to make me able to play them (although I will still learn how to count them)

* especially if those bits are completely inaudible because the brass are giving it all they've got at that point



I feel that it often makes pretty inefficient use of practice time to try to play through whole pieces/movements - it's much more effective (at least for me) to concentrate on much smaller chunks than that. I also can find it more productive to arrange my practice by tasks rather than by time - for example, rather than thinking "today I will spend 10 minutes practicing orchestra music", I try to think " today I will play the phrase at the beginning of the 3rd movement where I keep getting the bowing wrong - I will start off by playing slowly and working out what I do wrong and then I will try to gradually speed it up".


I'm also finding that there is an optimal time in the rehearsal process for the bulk of the practice. I don't find it to be very useful to do a lot of practice on things that we haven't yet rehearsed because I won't have much insight into tempo, where my part fits in the texture etc. Getting things into my brain and under my fingers comfortably before the concert works better for me than leaving things to the last minute. I also find that sometimes a bit that I've worked on a lot at home and can play at home still won't go right the first time I then try to do it in a rehearsal - sometimes that seems to be an indication that it needs more work at home, sometimes it's just a matter of managing to get it right in context.

Finally, I agree with what others have said about listening to recordings. I try to listen while looking at my part - getting an idea of cues, how my part fits in. I also find it very useful to listen without my part in front of me to get an feel of how the music works as a complete entity, without getting distracted with thinking about how to play my part in it.

Yes - I discovered this needed some thinking about as at the last concert orchestra rehearsal I had to play the trombone part (on cello). I'm not used to counting 56 bars rest!

This is exactly what I do too.

The only variation is with the long rest counting. I use a combination of the finger thing and listening. In fact in very long rests (thankfully I've only had t deal with a few of those) I usually try to find something going on that I can identify by ear a little while before the entry and count from there. Also, in quite a lot of popular music (and some classical), phrases quite often go in set groups of 4, 8 etc. So I use the respective number of fingers rather than 5 or 10. That keeps my finger counting in sync with the sound of what's going on. In fact, sometimes I count the repetitions rather than bar-by-bar.

So do I, but in principle one ought to count the conductor's downbeats; this is safe if and only if he is conscientious about giving precisely one downbeat per bar, but means that e.g. in opera he can give the right number of beats quickly at the beginning of a recitative and let the singer and instrumentalists perform it as chamber music.. The most economical way to count on your fingers is to use binary notation; then one hand can count up to 31 and two to 1023. However, I guess this is a technique available only to computer programmers: the only other person I know who does this is a distinguished expert in programming language design.

Preparation to play double bass in a concert has many more aspects than have been mentioned so far, rather few of them relevant to the OP's question. On all strings, there are multiple fingering options for any passage, and what works best for the others in my section is not always best for me for three reasons: they have better orthodox technique than I have; I have larger hands than any of the others and can use 'cello fingering (all four fingers) when my hand is in shoulder position; I have a long C string with toggle operated mechanical fingers that can stop the string at lengths giving E, Eb, D and C# as well as the open C. The last is particularly relevant in our next concert, in which we are playing Beethoven 9, a monster of a symphony. This has passages that include isolated notes in the extended range, always only one of them and mostly used several times in one passage. The part is very full, so finding places to change the setting of the toggles needs preparation and reminders in the part. I also write in fingerings where an unobvious one is easiest. Then there is the particular problem that we are using a set of hired parts that has mistakes in the notes; their corrections have to be negotiated with the conductor, since they involve other sections, such as the 'cellos and the bassoons. The parts are also full of pencil bowings (mostly good) and phrasings (mostly rubbish) that have to be negotiated with the section principal, since we never have time to sort them out in rehearsal.

Once all these matters are sorted, I shall settle down to learning how to play the merely difficult bits and to fake the totally impossible ones. During Beethoven's lifetime, sensible promoters booked Dragonetti to play in the concert before scheduling this work; one careless London promoter announced the performance, tried to book Dragonetti, and then decided to cancel when he learnt what D's fee would be.

I conduct along in strict time, with the fingers noting the bar number. Therefore, you don't need to count ["1,2,3,4...." or "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and ..."]. And then only counting the first beat of the bar, cos you only have 5 fingers (1 hand must hold the instrument). I find this very useful when conductors windmill, make every beat a downbeat, or do expressive conducting rather than conducting the pulse (like a lot of professional conductors in a concert) , or stop conducting altogether.

I only play orchestral pieces because I don't have the time, or place to concentrate on solo pieces.

And as others have said:
1) Look for cues a few bars before you come in. For instance, the trumpets (distinctive instrument) may come in 2 bars before you with the tune. This saves you counting say 56 bars rest.
2) Recordings (example: youtube). Learn to come in on your cue first time and carry on playing. You may need to miss out a few notes to catch up/ get with the rest of the virtual orchestra at first. But, Always get that first note in, especially if it's the beginning of the bar/ tutti/ solo, etc.

Playing on your own is difficult, but after the first couple of notes, it's back to standard playing

Conductors of amateur orchestras should be very wary of ceasing to indicate bars. I agree that lots of conductors don't distinguish downbeats from others. Even if they have a clear pattern, that is visible only from their front, by the central portion of the orchestra. They should consider what the principal bass and outside back desk of firsts can see: only the height of the previous beat, which should be above the shoulder only on the last beat of each bar.

Deliberately abandoning the beat is fine if you know that every member of the orchestra knows the piece well enough to do a decent performance unconducted and that no speed variation is desirable. I find it interesting to watch Gergiev. In works that his orchestra knows well, he indicates shapes and moods, and probably lots of other things that I can't interpret, but doesn't bother too much about the time; in an unfamiliar piece, or something like Rite of Spring, in which even the LSO might occasionally be grateful for a bit of help, Gergiev's beat is clear enough for them to follow when they need it.

There is a thread on this forum, started by Kenny on 1 September 2008, called "What to notice when conducting?". One of my contributions, at the bottom of the first page, describes a very good conductor's* decision to stop conducting at a rehearsal, why he so decided and the problem it solved.

* Christopher Adey

"pudding stirrer" conductors are the worst - I know there's a beat in there, just not sure where!

Oh, tell me about it!

I'm completely self-taught as a conductor, but I like to think I'm sort of reasonable at it...I've conducted Haydn symphonies and suchlike before...

That brings back memories - he conducted the County of Avon Schools Orchestra when I was in it, in about 1980. Yes, fabulous conductor.

I have been very fortunate to play under a very good and experienced conductor, I can't tell you how much he has taught me..a wonderful and giving man. He can be a pudding strirrer sometimes but his pulse is usually very clear and if in doubt follow the leader..

As for orchestral practicing well I always cover any exposed parts or solos, making sure they fall under the fingers with ease..the rest I usually read but have a good idea of what's coming up.. I am surprised how much I read even during a concert..it's like reading a book really..

Try to do as much practice as possible but also have studies and other music to do for lessons so I do what I can..

Ahaha! The brass usually seem to have very easy things to play at these points too, so they totally blast it out and there is not a lot of point in us string players sweating about a couple of really scary but quiet notes. (Aside: Why do composers do that?)

Just making sure I know how to count a particularly scary bit is vital for me. If you're performing, I think it's really important to be able to do this so that you can mime the difficult part convincingly and start playing the easier bits at the correct time.

As our conductor often says, it's better to play any note at the right time than the right note at the wrong time. At least if you play at the right time you stand a chance of being right!

As our conductor often says, it's better to play any note at the right time than the right note at the wrong time. At least if you play at the right time you stand a chance of being right!
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sounds like a cue for a new thread...' things conductors say !'

In our conductor's words, "ensemble is everything" and other comments like you're not here to play on your own or in your own little world!

When performing, it's better to play nothing than to play at the wrong time (a bar late/early or something). Thus, you should know what's happening around in the widder orchestration so you can pick up from a noticeable part.

I quite agree and as someone who is fairly new to the orchestra, it's having the confidence to comit yourself to a certain passage, particularly if it is quite a fast exposed bit.

It's a great feeling when you get it right though

Not a lot to add to that, although for me sometimes practice is in the brain not so much on the instrument. You have to expect how it is going to go. If you have a big piece of smush that you have been busking then you have to sit down with the music and drill it into your brain first, then you sit down with the instrument and try to make those noises.

The other (somewhat random) thing I do is count rests in sign language. It means you never run out of numbers or get confused as to where exactly you are and how many you have counted, although it looks a bit insane if you are still counting by the time you have to give a performance, workshops and repertoire orchestras and such.