I have recently taken on an adult semi-beginner on piano. I've noticed, the last lesson in particular, that she doesn't like being corrected if she plays something wrong. I wouldn't be doing my job properly if i just told her "well done" for everything and let her continue playing things wrongly. She's expressed an interest towards going in for exams. She's making extremely good progress and i like to think of myself as a teacher who encourages all my students constructively (not like a teacher i had years ago who sat with their arms folded and just said "do it again" over and over until i figured it out myself and got it right!) In the last lesson, my student was playing some wrong notes, and when i demonstrated the bars, she sighed and took her hands away from the piano looking really hacked off. I was a bit taken aback by this and didn't really know how to react other than reassuring her, which i think just made the situation worse as she then kind of blew air out her mouth and shook her head. It left me feeling apprehensive about forthcoming errors, and whether i should say anything or just let all the mistakes go - obviously i can't and won't do this though. I'm guessing she feels frustrated with herself and not annoyed with me. I actually had a feeling she was going to stop lessons after this block but she hasn't and has booked more. We chat at the start of the lesson about various non-music related things, and i think we get on fine but when the lesson starts the atmosphere changes somewhat. I had a similar thing a few years ago with an older man i used to teach, who actually took offense if i corrected him. Am i doing something wrong without realizing? Any suggestions?

Some students just improve with very little correction. For those your job is to choose the right material, encourage, demonstrate new techniques, observe and listen, and very rarely to correct anything.

Where correction is needed there is no need to point out every mistake. Just focus on the most important and ignore the rest temporarily. As for how to point out errors and correct mistakes, there are unobtrusive and pleasant ways to do it, and other ways that will upset or annoy. You have to make sure that you are using the first kind!

But if someone is so sensitive that they get upset at any criticism, then they probably don't yet have what it takes to learn the piano.

No...but...I think there are times when have to just 'go with it', particularly in the early stages. You mention that you've recently taken her on, so it's going to take a while to build up a relationship. When you're correcting things, try and do it in as non-confrontational way as possible; be careful that it doesn't come across as a criticism. Rather than correcting her, try slighty shifting the emphasis round with things like "have a quick check of the notes in bar X" and suchlike. It's much better that as far as possible they work out what's wrong rather than having the told (I think this is more the case with adults than children).

Also, try to forsee any problems before they come. Rather than an approach of 'Play > Mistake > Correct > Play', try for 'Prepare for likely errors > Play' - there's a subtle difference here, and does remove some of the frustration before it happens. I'm all for demonstrating, but I know that some adults find this rather demoralising, the immediate reaction often being "oh, I'll never be able to do it like that".

Adults do find it very frustrating in the earliest stages. It's important that they feel they're moving forward and that it's enjoyable. If they do this, then they tend to be more willing to correct things in the future. Particularly for beginners, I'm happy to let a few things go without correction if it means they get a confidence boost (which is far more beneficial in the long run). As always, try to supplement the lessons with other things - duets etc., and try not to feel you're spending a long time on one thing.

I highlighted things that jumped out at me.

I can't imagine you try to correct your pupils in anything other than the most delicate way you can already.

I've had a few pupils like that - and I've let this go on too long.
If it gets to the point that you're not looking forward to their lesson (which would be right now if I were the teacher) then I'd be sending the "I don't feel my style of teaching is meeting your needs" email.

My teacher sometimes asks if I knew I'd made a mistake.
Have you tried asking her for feedback on how she played before you give yours?

I agree with you about being unwilling (and unable?) to just leave things though often you have to choose which things to pick up on and which to leave for another time. I usually ask for a section to be played a second time to give me more of a clue as to whether it was a one off error or a practised in one before I comment.
I like Seer Green's "have a quick check of the notes in bar X".

If it's a real problem you could consider being more up front and asking what she expects from you as a teacher if it's not helping her to play better. Is she like this over interpretation suggestions?

Tricky. At some point, you might need to have a conversation along the lines of "I notice that you are getting quite frustrated sometimes.." and try to talk about how the lessons are going. I know I used to find it very annoying when a previous teacher used to correct every single wrong note - I knew that I'd made a mistake, and didn't really want it pointed out. Perhaps you need to make a judgement about whether it's a slip-up or she has actually learnt it wrong (playing it again is the best way to sort that one out).

If it's a piece she has been working on, then perhaps you could try asking before she plays - "are there any bits that you are having trouble with?". When she's finished - "how did you feel that went?" - it's about getting her to identify mistakes, rather than you being the one to point them out.

I had an adult who ignored all my comments and just shut the book and started playing something else once he had played the piece to his satisfaction. I concluded that he didn't actually want to learn, but was paying to come and play my nice piano once a week. He got the boot....

I think communication seems to be the main thing to me - if one of my pupils (adult or child) did that in a lesson, I would just ask them what's up. An ongoing atmosphere like that is never going to be condusive to good lessons for either of us, and after all, I can't help if I don't know.

I'm fortunate to have a very good relationship with my adult pupils - I do correct them a fair bit, but I keep everything very light-hearted, and we have a joke about it. They do often get frustrated with themselves for making mistakes, especially if things go better at home then fall to pieces in the lesson. I remind them how normal that experience is - as also are the 'silly'/frustrating mistakes they keep making, or technique they're struggling with etc. I explain to them that just because I'm having to correct them - even repeatedly - doesn't mean they're doing badly or embarrassing themselves; on the contrary, they're actually making mistakes in all the places I expect them too, and I'm completely happy with their progress.

Sometimes they've jokily said things like, "You must be getting sick of me doing this wrong!" or "I must be one of your worst pupils!" etc, and I assure them it's not at all the case - it's just that it's my job to show them what they're doing wrong, and how to put it right. Sometimes I'll pull out an old book of mine and show pupils where my own teacher circled a passage or wrote a note in big letters at the top of a page saying exactly the same thing I've just said to them - so they can see I made the same mistakes when I was learning! I think they also sometimes worry I'll think they're not practising etc, and I again assure them that I can tell how much work they've been putting in, and that I never expect them to turn up and play fault-free! (Which sometimes seems to be their aim/desire/expectation!) As I tell my young pupils when they get upset about struggling or making mistakes, if they picked everything up straight away and played perfectly every week, I'd be out of a job!

I do think it sounds as if you're pupil is frustrated with herself rahter than you, but if she is actually getting annoyed with you for correcting her, she needs to understand that that's what she's paying you for! If you just sat and listened and smiled every week, surely anyone could do that?! Teaching has to involve showing her the mistakes she hadn't noticed, and helping her to put them right. As others (and you yourself) have said, that doensn't mean stopping every second to correct everything. With both adults and children I often ask questions like "What do you think I'm going to say about how you played that?", or "Can you suggest two things you think you did well and two things that you think need more practice?" - it's good for them to self-evaluate and not rely entirely on us to spot mistakes (or good bits!), and once they've identified the sticky bits we can then move on to showing them how to practise it or put it right. (They can have input in this, too - "What do you think you could practise to help you get this bit right?" etc.) But the main thing is that your student needs to come every week expecting to need some input from you. After all, why else is she there?

ETA - just seen Scooby Doo's post, which I somehow missed before! Apologies for any repetition...obviously I agree!

Well just putting the pupils viewpoint, I would be pretty miffed to receive such an email. Surely these things should be handled face to face?

Talking as an adult pupil (and a teacher!), I usually notice when I have made a mistake in my piano playing, and I sometimes find it frustrating to be told about the mistake, when I already know about it. I know that sometimes the teacher points it out just as a way to broach the subject so we can talk about how to fix it. However, sometimes it's a one-off mistake that just happened that time, and therefore I feel a bit impatient having to listen all about it. I know that this is partly just my problem, and I would never dream of being rude or demoralising towards my teacher.
If your adult pupil is experiencing similar feelings, I think Seer Green's suggestions would really help. I also sometimes ask pupils "what was your deliberate mistake?" (obviously in a light-hearted way and only if I know the pupil can 'cope' with that kind of approach!) I think this gives them the opportunity to spot their own mistakes and gives them a bit more independance.

I very much like Seer Green's suggestions: one more I have is that it's always worth starting off with the positives, especially if you've found some the pupil is unlikely to have thought of - "I really liked the way you shaped that phrase", or "you made that smooth and flowing, well done", to stroke down feathers first, then the corrections can come to a pre-mollified pupil . And yes, you can say things like, "watch out in that bar, are you aware of what you did there?" thereby inviting a bit of self-criticism.

The opposite also can happen - the over-self-critical pupil, and there it is quite important to make sure you've put their own criticisms into some context. I well remember how, in a lesson in which I was playing fairly badly, and I was beating myself up over it, that my teacher at the time would say, "actually, it's not as bad as you're making out, and you can fix it by doing this, this and this". He also didn't carry on trying to get me to get some detail right if I was getting flustered, instead saying, "I'll let you continue work on that at home".

It sounds to me like you are already being sensitive and encouraging. My instinct would be to address the issue (if you have more courage than me that is, and feel that you can!). Reassure her that everyone (even the best concert pianist) makes mistakes, and that the piano can't be learnt without them. Actually ask her whether she is annoyed with herself or with you, and how you could best help her improve (this will give her something to reflect on, and will invite her to see it from your perspective). She may not realise that she is unintentionally making it very difficult for you to teach her. I teach a couple of adults with very high-flying jobs - they both expect to do everything perfectly straight away and really beat themselves up when they can't. I battle hard to change their philosophy, and to get them to accept that their best is great, and that I value them regardless. Perfection is probably expected at work - so I just keep on battling!

If I was sacking someone because they were rude to me in a lesson I truly wouldn't care how miffed they were.

The next time she looks really "hacked off" why not just ask her whats the matter and if she is "hacked off"with yourself, only then you may find out the answer.

It might be she is "hacked off" with herself for getting it all wrong, rather than with yourself.

I'm a middle aged learner of piano who has managed multi-million pound IT projects, commanded a battalion of Infantry, and represented Gt Britain in international competitions. But, when I'm in a piano lesson and make a mistake, I expect my teacher to correct me. How else do I learn?

But, quite rightly, not all adults take it in quite the same way. For many, undertaking learning an instrument 'later' in life is an enormous undertaking emotionally. It requires an awful lot of patience on the part of the teacher to get the balance right between supporting, encouraging, teaching, confidence-boosting, correcting, praising etc. etc. The fact that they might have done lots of other things in their lives (such as those you mention), can make it all the more frustrating.

To paraphrase: i have found that in general, teachers are more likely to be offended or become uncomfortable when corrected by an adult student compared to teenagers, when they make a mistake in lesson. They are long gone from the school system, some even a little past it, and are used to making majority of their own decisions. However,, any teacher of any age needs to approach a lesson with an open mind and in a humble fashion. They may have taught in a school for 20 years, play 8 instruments, composed 7 concerto's, play a duet with a world famous cellist, taken over radio FM.... but when it comes to anything other than music they know nothing. I have no time for attitude problems with teachers in my lessons. If a teacher makes any mistakes in my lesson it is always pointed out....there must be a clear (but invisible line) between student and teacher. "It's my lesson that i pay for", and i do not know who said this.
Of course for this method to be effective, all successful lessons taught by the teacher must be pointed out and praised. An effort must be made to get to know the teacher and a friendly atmosphere encouraged...but there must never be a question about who is paying for the lesson and why!!

But you've opened a new can of worms there.

In my little group of teaching associates some have professional day jobs and teaching a few adults is a hobby for which they charge the going rate or less - but from their perspective they're operating at a huge discount from their usual rates of pay.

Who is paying for the lesson and why? - teachers are sometimes paying towards the lesson and because it's an interesting thing to do and they get to meet some great people.

Slightly different perspective on this. I used to have a driving instructor who went on and ON about every little thing wrong in my driving lessons. He would regularly grab my steering wheel or change gear for me, and was constantly on the pedals. It drove me up the wall (though fortunately not the car). I was so tense waiting for his next interference, that I always drove erratically with him in the car.

Why?

1) Control. I have certain control-freak tendancies. I don't appreciate being corrected and I really hate anyone trying to do something for me when I'm muddling through. If someone tries, I immediately retreat, or step away.

2) Personal space. Reaching in (to take the steering wheel, change the gear, or to demonstrate on the piano) in an invasion of my personal space. So I withdraw in the same way.

3) I am predominantly a reflective learner. I learn by having time to think about something myself. Preferably on my own, and after the event.

If I run into a teacher who isn't able to step back, and act as a guide rather than a dictator, then we end up in a disasterous personality clash. The longer I spend with them, the more withdrawn and grouchy I become! Unfortunately, this means I can be a bit "unteachable" at times.

Its worth remembering that even in school, most learning is done independently. Classroom teachers are not in a position to give more than 1 or 2 minutes of individual attention in a lesson to each pupil. There are few opportunities to demonstrate, or intervene to correct mistakes, so its no wonder that some adults find it a bit frustrating to have such undivided attention!

I think this is an important point. It's what I often call the cycle of frustration/nerves... Once you've made a mistake (or the teacher has corrected you on some point), you're nervous about making another, which makes you tense and more likely to make another, which makes it more frustrating etc. etc. and ultimately unproductive.

I was taught that, when rehearsing an orchestra, you don't immediately follow the first play-through with intensive work on each of the mistakes. You go back to the beginning and start another run, in which you will find that many of the mistakes have been corrected by the players themselves. Perhaps in your teaching situation the next comment should be, "Would you like to try that again?".

I am an adult with perfectionistic tendencies, and I have been known to get very annoyed with myself which can manifest itself in behaviours similar to the above. Not usually in piano lessons, but it's happened at work before. It never occurred to me that these behaviours might come across as being critical of the person correcting me, rather than myself, so I shall be a bit more watchful in future.

(Of course, I don't know what's going through your student's head...)

Really good points here.

So important to talk about the positives ! Confidence is such an important thing when playing an instrument.

I also agree with the posts on the communication approach. Difficult one though.
Good luck.

I do something similar to this with almost all my pupils, especially if they've made a real hash of the piece. With older pupils I also ask them what I'm going to say about their playing of a piece before I launch into whatever I want to tackle - it means they learn to reflect on their own performance, and it helps me to see that they know where their mistakes were (if any, of course!).

It might also be helpful to say to your student that almost everyone comes to their lesson and plays "worse" than they've performed at home. It may be nerves that "teacher" is listening, a different piano, or simply that they didn't notice the mistakes they made at home.

I also move on from a piece when I feel we've achieved something from it - the piece may not be played perfectly, but if it is used as a learning tool then it's fine to move on once the particular aspect has been mastered.

Thanks for this - really interesting to hear your perspective. I definitely appreciate that different people learn differently, and whilst some will thrive under constant input/interaction, others prefer space to figure things out for themselves. I have both kinds of pupils (and more kinds in between!), and I think adapting to suit different leaning styles is part and parcel of being a teacher.

A couple of things specifically though: in term of invading you personal space, I can't see a reason for a teacher ever to this. (Unless I'm missing something?) A piano is plenty big enough for me to demonstrate an octave or two away from my students, or if I need to sit in their space, I'll ask them to move along first. I'd never just reach over and move their hand or something! Do other teachers really do this? On other instruments, you can demonstrate on your own without needing to go near the student. (Or, that's what I do.)

The other thing is regarding reflective learning. I understand this, but surely part of a teacher's job is to tell you what it is you need to reflect on? Sometimes a student knows full well where they've been going wrong, and there's no need to point it out. Other times they think they're doing something right, when they're not. Especially when it comes to tehcnique, quite often the only way they'll ever know they're not getting it right is for their teacher to tell them, and show them the right way to do it. With a student such as yourself, how would you suggest a teacher goes about this?


I agree, although I think how the correction is made and the general atmosphere in the lesson makes a big difference. Everyone gets frustrated when they don't perform as well as they know they can. But if the teacher is relaxed and keeps the mood is light, in my experience most students can laugh off the mistake and have another go, without too much frustration building. If you know that making a mistake doesn't matter, then you won't feel so tense worrying about making another one. It's the same reason I never laugh at or dismiss an answer from a child, however bad, because I want them always to feel willing to put their hand and offer one.

I also try to resist the temptation to 'cover up' any mistakes I may make when playing something in a lesson. Seeing my own reaction to making 'silly'/embarrassing mistakes can really influence and set the tone for how my students respond to their own mistakes - if it's ok for me to do it, it's ok for them to do it, too.


As I said, I'm always reminding students that I completely understand the "This never happens at home!" concept! I often just ask them, "Does this bit sometimes go wrong at home too, or was it just today?". That way we don't waste time working on something that's just an on-the-day mistake. Knowing I will believe them when they say this [obviously this presupposes I do...sometimes I'll suspect/know a student is lying about their practice, but I've rarely had it happen with adults] reduces the pressure to perform 'perfectly' in the first place. I've actually had students say, "You must think I'm lying about all this practice I've been doing", and I assure them I can tell the difference between lesson-day nerves and lack of practice.

It is certainly common in France for teachers to move the pupils hand (or arm) into the correct place - my oboe teacher does this and also sometimes gently taps me on the shoulder rather than interrupting verbally when he wants to correct something.



This is easy to say but far harder to accept. I am a teacher myself (although not of music) so I know that mistakes are "interesting" and that a pupil who always gets everything right actually means that your lesson is a poor one because you are not teaching anything but this hasn't stopped me apologising for my own mistakes in my oboe lessons and my teacher pointing out to me on several occasions that if I didn't make mistakes he would be out of a job.

I am also not completely convinced about being asked what I thought about what I have just played. There are some things that are wrong about my technique that my teacher has been telling me for years and, although I have tried to improve them, they are still problematic. It used to make me feel completely useless to have to say that X was still wrong - as if I hadn't been listening to what he said. One day I said something along the lines of he must think I didn't listen but I just seemed to be getting nowhere despite trying really hard at home. He then went to some lengths to point out that I had in fact made a lot of progress in this particular area but it was something that was hard and would take years to perfect. The other thing that helped was to sit in on some of his other lessons and to realise that he says some of the same things to all his pupils (rather as I say the same thing to many of mine).


One of the best pieces I ever played in a concert was when my teacher was accompanying and didn't know the piano part very well. The fact that I knew he was likely to make mistakes allowed me to take off my self-imposed pressure to be perfect. I found this so liberating that when he said he promised to practise it before the concert, I said that I I didn't mind at all if he didn't "And then felt guilty because I thought he probably had his own reputation to maintain )

I was an adult 'semi-beginner' on the violin a few months ago and was taken on by a very pleasant teacher. I think it is more of a struggle starting up lessons if you have played something before, and almost worse than being a complete beginner. My teacher was nice enough but tried to correct a zillion things in a lesson and there was a lack of making me feel like I was doing much right ...I probably looked exasperated at each correction to the frustration of the teacher, but this also caused me frustration as the endless attention to improving so many things killed the enjoyment of learning for me.
It may be worthwhile giving this semi beginner a chance over a few lessons and do what you can to make her feel more at ease. She is probably doing something very challenging for her.
I have restarted the violin and found it far more challenging and frustrating that starting from scratch on piano.
I now have a different teacher who asked me what I wanted to get out of lessons and teaches around this.




I know exactly where you are coming from. This also highlights the difference between a teacher and a facilitator. Most adults I know would prefer 'guidance' and probably need to be treated differently in lessons to children.

I see - thanks. I deliberately work with the idea of imitation rather than moving their hands for them etc, but for teachers taking a different approach I can see it would happen more often. I think I'd still ask first - "Is it ok if I show you what position your arm should be in at the moment?" But then, I'm quite aware of my own personal space (I don't think I'd like to be tapped on the shoulder), so I'm probably more aware of avoiding invading my students' space too.


I completely agree! Even in my university performances I got feedback saying, "You played this piece very well, but you really need to stop turning to us and apologising whenever you make a mistake!" It's because I understand how it feels that I do all I can so that my pupils don't need to feel like that. I know I can't actually stop someone feeling embarrassed or frustrated when they go wrong, but I can try my best to reduce that worry by making sure there's as little pressure and as light and relaxed an atmosphere as possible. And it does seem to help.


That's why I usually ask students to tell me what they did well, as well as the bits they think need more practice. If it's a pupil who's always good at spotting their mistakes and perhaps has a tendency to be self-critical, I'll change the ratios - e.g. 4 positives and 1 thing to work on. And if I knew a pupil was likely to focus immediately on the same problem every time (like in your case), I'd probably also say, "Apart from X, which I know you're working hard on at home, what 4 things..." etc.

Another side to all of this I think is making sure pupils know what their teacher's expectations are - e.g. how long I expect it to take for them to work on something. Otherwise, they can get frustrated or embarrassed because they haven't mastered a technique in 1 week, when actually it's something that will always take months to get right! I guess this brings us back to communication again...

What i wrote was not necessarily my opinions, in fact, i do not agree with ANY of it! and was actually really rude. It was more to paraphrase what you wrote, if you see what i mean?

A teacher can become offended, but it may not mean they are bad teachers, they may just be upset etc.
Musicians are skilled, and yes you get good and bad in ALL professions. Music is important in society as are many other professions, and equally those people who do jobs which are not considered professionals! Strangely enough, you talk about customers dictating terms and it not being the same in the world of teaching music, but i cannot necessarily agree. Private teaching, is dictated by the student to VARYING extends, depending on the student, some are entirely happy to let the teacher "lead the way". You are providing a service(regardless of what you may think) and if a student dictates, for e.g. a particular style of teaching or type of music to be taught etc etc etc, then as a teacher you MAY have to accommodate that. Similarly, people MAY dictate to their GP what they want or do not want in their health care, even when the GP may disagree! Today, student's are very much the customer, i think, don't miss-understand, i am not saying it is always a good thing!.
Yes, i understand your point here (about regulation), but, regulation, may well cause problems, not only for the less good one's.

This is way off topic
very interesting talking with you.

I don't think my teacher has ever asked if I minded him touching my hands and arms (although I have been having lessons for some time so may have forgotten) he has always asked about potentially more "sensitive" areas like abdominal muscles or facial muscles.

I think teachers are generally sensitive to how a pupil reacts to being touched since my daughter's cello teacher once commented to me that she didn't try to move my daughter's fingers on her bow into the correct position the way she did with her other pupils because my daughter obviously didn't like being touched.

Being tapped on the shoulder was a bit of a surprise the first time but I think now I prefer it for several reasons: 1) it is less abrupt then a verbal interruption - I usually feel I can finish the phrase, whereas I stop immediately if he starts speaking 2) it allows me to pass mentally from "playing" to "listening" mode and means I hear everything he says whereas if he starts speaking while I'm still playing I often miss the first couple of words (this is possibly more of a problem because I think in English while I'm playing and my lessons are in French).

Thanks - this is all really interesting to me. Incidentally, having to 'switch' languages mid-lesson would completely flummox me - not your main point I know, but I'm impressed nonethless!