Perhaps you're right

Celloguy, you said:

QUOTE

My own belief (not based on statistics either hard or soft) is that a dedicated adult should be able to progress to upper-intermediate or advanced amateur level, but that the higher levels are basically reserved for child starters: in the same way that an adult can learn a foreign language to near-native level, but will almost always retain a slight accent and make occasional grammar errors.

...and several people have told you that no, adult learners can get to the highest levels. Highly experienced teachers and performers have repeatedly told you that, and you have said "Oh but..."

I have been asking around on a few places where I know advanced adult learners post. The consensus is that no, most adult starters do not reach professional levels... but this is NOT a function of their learning ability, it is choice anc circumstance. Few adults have the resources (time, money, energy) to do the amount of practice that would get them to a professional level. To quote a friend from another list (an experienced flute teacher), "the reality is that most adult beginners will not advance to professional level - but it is a choice, and definitely not a function of their ability to learn... You have to make a conscious choice to make the time, and you have to have enough resources to pay for top-notch instruction. But it certainly can be done". Another friend (adult learner) states that she has the energy and the money but can't find the time - and yet is heading slowly but surely toward grade 8...

As AP says, the "pool" of adult learners from who start after 30, take exams, and do well, is pretty small, and yet we have one (Katyjay) sitting right over there (metaphorically speaking!) - that I would say is a pretty good indication that it can be done... this forum is only posted on by a tiny minority of the people who take AB exams. Others have achieved very high marks from adult starts at lower grades - no doubt high marks in grade 8 will follow sooner or later.

As a long time learner of several instruments, all requiring manual dexterity, I can assure you that application to study and practice and a good teacher outweighs starting young by miles... I have seen it happen! I started the violin aged 7 - I have a friend who started at least 10 years after me...(probably more actually) but he practised more and had a good teacher and had lessons on his uni course... and you know what, he's WAY better than me. (and by the way ditto his skills on the piano, which is also started comparatively late aged about 20 - from a standing start aged 20, comparatively young to your "limits", but still by no means a child starter, he's now grade 6-7-diploma on his 3 main instruments, and competant at several others)

Talent and musicality also plays a huge role... technical excellence is only worthwhile because it allows the music to be unimpeded. There's a whole lot more to music than just technical accomplishment.

No one is saying that adults learn exactly the same way as children... you know what, in some ways we're MORE efficient at learning than children - we just learn in a totally different manner.

QUOTE

And that therefore differences in "fine-motor learning" can be compensated for by levels of concentration, commitment, understanding and so forth in adults that just aren't there in children.

Amen to that... anyone who's ever taught children and adults will appreciate how well adults can concentrate and understand stuff that children just won't "get" - and that goes for languages just as much as music... and your statement that adults cannot learn a language perfectly is, I am afraid, equally off base.

Don't impose limits before you even start: adults have the capability to learn their whole lives and to do it well.

Perhaps you're right, as I say. Certainly my view is a minority view here

QUOTE

You have also built yourself another barrier

Just look at the quotes in my signnature below............

Why oh why do we still have this false belief that learning, or the ability to learn, stops when we leave school/college or at the entry to adulthood.

I did four years at music college, but, since then while working full-time I took on studying for a Physics degree...and got through it!! Next stop, is either an MA/MSc or an MMus,...possibly followed up by a DPhil or PhD.

I actually know I am more capable of learning and retaining new data now, than I was as a child or a teenager, simply because: 1) I really want to learn, 2) I get a huge amount of self-satisfaction from it (not to mention the knowledge gain), 3) I have far more determination now than I ever had as a youngster, and 4) I don't want to be stuck in the rut of ignorance.

Youth is wasted on the young! When we have the time and the space to learn we often don't want to be bothered, and by the time most people are asking "Isn't it a bit late?", so many want to change direction and do something different.

There is no longer such thing as "a job for life", and society is going to have to accept that adult learners (and successful ones at that) are going to be a force to be reckoned with in the coming decades!!!

I believe it was Shaw who quoted, "You'd better get what you like, or you'll have to like what you get"

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 19 2005, 06:56 PM)

I actually know I am more capable of learning and retaining new data now, than I was as a child or a teenager, simply because:  1) I really want to learn, 2) I get a huge amount of self-satisfaction from it (not to mention the knowledge gain), 3) I have far more determination now than I ever had as a youngster, and 4) I don't want to be stuck in the rut of ignorance.

Spot on, AmandaL!

QUOTE

society is going to have to accept that adult learners (and successful ones at that) are going to be a force to be reckoned with in the coming decades!!!

Couldn't agree more.

I look at other thirty-something singers who have had a twenty-odd year head start on me and while my first reaction is "if only I'd started earlier" , my second reaction is a determination to catch up to them as much as I can . By the time I and they are in our sixties, I reckon, the head start won't matter any more .

My teacher has a number of pupils who are (trained from childhood up) professionals, and he's addressing the same issues, with the same repertoire too, with them as with me. The one time I pleaded being new to this game, I got an earbashing I wouldn't like to repeat

In the words of the late, great Cy Coleman...

"It's not where you start, it's where you finish....and I'm going to finish on top!"

Cheers

Katyjay

Another aspect to this is what is a professional standard?

I know of two people who live very close to me, both started piano when very young (although 20 years apart), did fantastically well, won all sorts of competitions and awards, went on to study piano at major music schools and tried to make it on the concert circuit. Both failed to make it - one is now a journalist, having drifted into that through writting music reviews, one is now teaching piano.

They are both fabulous pianists and I literally cannot imagine anyone being better than them, but the world of professional music is so competive that even years of hard work coupled with monumental talent and are simply not enough.

Even if you took a cohort of thousands of 5 - 6 year olds all starting music lessons, the percentage reaching grade 8 standard would be tiny. Another thing you don't seem to realise is that, in the great scheme of things, even a distinction at this grade is not a very high standard. This is actualy the advanced amateur level that you feel adults can reach!!!

A huge chunk of the professional repertoire is far harder. What's more, professionals are expected to be able to play from the Standard repertoire as a matter of course and so, even if you get a grade 8 distinction, there is literally years of work ahead before you will even come close to mastering it. And remember - this is not to *establish* yourself as a professional, it is to put yourself in a position where you can start to *think* about playing professionally.

The fraction of people with grade 8 distinctions who go on to even be in the running for a professinoal career will be tiny, and of those, the number who will become professionals in any meaningful sense will be minisicule.

It is a definition of success is so narrow that it is meaningless.

Hello StuMac... In none of my posts do I suggest that G8 distinction is equivalent to "professional level" (in classical music): of course it isn't. Nor have I said (or even implied) that all musicians who attain a professional level manage (or even want) to make a living from it. Nor does anything I've said imply that I think it's easy for a child starter to achieve G8 distinction. And AmandaL: where have I suggested that "the ability to learn stops ... at the entry to adulthood"?

Could I suggest that you read what I DID say before disagreeing with me

Fletch and Katyjay do appear to have read what I wrote.

Fletch focuses on my own learning, and says I would profit from a more positive attitude: no doubt you're right!

Katyjay appears (?) to accept that adults do have somewhat reduced potential for fine-motor learning, but that this can be overcome by hard work and positive thinking. This is a valid opinion, even though I'm not entirely in agreement: I think that we can overcome our reduced fine-motor learning capacity to some extent, but that there are probably limits to this.

I certainly agree that taking up a musical instrument (voice, cello, mbira...) as an adult is a wonderful idea, and that it's perfectly possible for us to reach a musically satisfying level.

QUOTE (StuMac @ May 20 2005, 12:36 PM)

even if you get a grade 8 distinction, there is literally years of work ahead before you will even come close to mastering it. And remember - this is not to *establish* yourself as a professional, it is to put yourself in a position where you can start to *think* about playing professionally.

But there are people who have "made it" as musicians in the popular music world who really can't play anything beyond there own very narrow spectrum.
Especially included in this category are many guitarists, I'm sad to say.
But to name but two, who would call themselves musicians on their passports are the members of Busted and McFly. Kurt Cobain, although he was arguably blessed in other departments, he was a terrible guitarist. And I am sure you could all think of many more without much effort.
So it would seem, that in a quest to be a professional musician of sorts, the ability to actually play a bit is only a minor distraction

Celloguy

Despite having read all your posts, I disagree with just about everything you've said.

Every time your assumptions are challenged you change what you're asserting:

"Can an adult starter become professional?" - We gave you a couple of examples of people who did. So you change your definition of "Professional".
"Can a starter over 30 get Grade 8 Distinction?" - we gave you examples I could quote my late aunt, who took up the oboe in her fifties and got up to diploma level, and played with her county orchestra (although she did play the piano before that so you'll say that's invalid) - and I can give others, but as they're singers you won't count them.

You then come up with some cobblers about a "myth" on the learning of "fine motor control". We point out that "fine-motor learning" is an element of music-making that has less and less relevance to the performance at higher levels.

And now your latest effort: where on earth did any of us claim that you'd said it was easy for a child to get Grade 8 distinction? This is another of your changes - when you're shown to be wrong you come back with a false claim for what we've said.

You are using prep-school debating tactics to avoid admitting that your original statements are nonsense. Just give it up.

Do you want someone to justify your perceived lack of achievement with the argument that there's a limit to how much an adult can achieve? Well, tough luck - you're on a loser. Your perception needs changing - grade 3 is an achievement, as is the prep test and FRSM and everything in between.

We're here to find out and demonstrate how much we can do. You won't find apologists here for achieving grade 3 - although on this board you will find some people who'll party when they get there. Or who have celebrated when they did do so. And you'll find a huge number of people all supporting each other in their musical progress - and you'll find that support is there for you too if you change your attitude.

You'll get much more satisfaction by putting this energy into your 'cello playing, rather than into trying to win us over. And just maybe, if you take these barriers in your mind down, you'll do even better in your upcoming grades.

Katyjay

QUOTE (Fletch @ May 20 2005, 01:26 PM)

So it would seem, that in a quest to be a professional musician of sorts, the ability to actually play a bit is only a minor distraction

Fletch has a point.

Actually celloguy, I among others have read ALL your posts. You have continually redefined your question, and it does seem that every time anyone comes up with an example, the response is "yes, but..."

Every person I have spoken to (I could quote but the exact wordings would be on my computer at home), which includes some very very experienced teachers and professional players, has said "Yes, it is possible for adults to reach a very very high level. No, being an adult does not mean you'll never be good. Yes, it is possible to reach professional level if you have the motivation and resources. No, there are no limits on what an adult can learn given the opportunity."

*cheers katyjay* long may such positive attitudes reign!

What an uncivil adult learner you are, Katyjay! But I shall try to respond to the solid bits, rather than your shrill polemic.

QUOTE (katyjay @ May 20 2005, 01:45 PM)

"Can an adult starter become professional?" - We gave you a couple of examples of people who did.  So you change your definition of "Professional".

You told me about Rak, who started age 18 or 19; so it's questionable whether he can be classified as an adult starter. He's what we might call a marginal case.

And you told me about John Holt. Oh, but then it turns out that he didn't reach professional level at all... though nobody has deigned to recognize this

So I really don't think it's me who's changing my definition of professional, but you who's failing to come up with valid examples.

As regards less spectacular achievements, at no point have I doubted that adult starters can achieve G8 distinction on a non-voice instrument: please go back and read my posts. So far, though, nobody has produced a concrete example of same.

In short, Katyjay: less hot air and diatribe, please, and more attention to the facts and the issues. Oh, and basic civility.

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 20 2005, 02:08 PM)

You told me about Rak, who started age 18 or 19; so it's questionable whether he can be classified as an adult starter. He's what we might call a marginal case.

Well I would say that at 18 or 19 you are an adult. You can vote, you can drink, you can die in the service of your country and in the eyes of the law you most certainly are viewed as an adult. But that apart, you appear to have missed the bit about Rak only taking up classical studies at 21 or 22. As I said in my previous post taking up a guitar and learning to strum chords is a million miles away from playing classical guitar. So I would disagree that he is a marginal case.
You obviously doubt that singing would be a valid candidate to be included.
But I would say to you, that you should maybe try it out. After all, at some point in your future, you are going to get to sight sing as part of your aural during practical examinations. Pick yourself a simple piece of music in a major key, play the key chord and starting note and off you go. After you have voiced each note, play it and see how close you are. If you find that really easy, try the same with the related minor.
You never know, you may find you are the next Pavarotti.

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 20 2005, 02:08 PM)

QUOTE (katyjay @ May 20 2005, 01:45 PM) "Can an adult starter become professional?" - We gave you a couple of examples of people who did.  So you change your definition of "Professional". You told me about Rak, who started age 18 or 19; so it's questionable whether he can be classified as an adult starter. He's what we might call a marginal case.

You doubt whether he was an adult - as Fletch has pointed out, he didn't start classical guitar at that age, besides which I find your definition of "adult learner" as post 30 as being slightly ridiculous.

I'm not surprised katyjay has become vehement after some of your comments, but I don't think she was rude (no ruder than you have been about singing somehow not counting ...) It's a subject she feels strongly about, and you have been very negative in this whole thread. Don't be surprised if you attitude causes raised hackles (especially when posting in a forum specifically *for* adult learners!)

As for John Holt - I don't think anyone who's actually read the book has said for definite whether he reached any kind of professional level or not, all we have is hearsay from someone who thinks that he didn't as far as they know.

As for changing the definition we certainly went from "professional" to "high professional", which never has been clarified...

Massively outnumbered and mightily bored, I give in. There's really no point in debating with people who have blind faith in an idea. All power to you!

Good grief... and you say katyjay was rude...

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 20 2005, 04:43 PM)

Massively outnumbered and mightily bored, I give in. There's really no point in debating with people who have blind faith in an idea. All power to you!

Yeah right mate.
I would say you are the one blinded by faith in your idea. Doesn't the fact that nobody agrees with you, kind of tell you something? And you throw the towel in a manner that says "I know I'm right, and you lot are all stupid".
We have you all wrong celloguy, or is it cellochild?
But in giving up, you have proved that my earlier post was correct in it's synopsis, you are indeed a quitter.
You have been provided with the Rak case, at which point you reclassify an adult to be genuine, only if above 30.
You are provided with katyjay and her singing, which you dismiss with a nonsensical argument, due to complete, and total ignorance of what's involved.
If the facts don't fit your theory, you change the facts.

@Celloguy

Seems the Friday the thirteenth bug has stung you pretty hard eh mate LOL
Perhaps now you rue starting this topic on that date.

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 18 2005, 01:03 PM)

In short, it strikes me as QUITE BIZARRE and absolutely untenable for you people to persist in considering voice as equivalent to other instruments in the present context.

Looking back over this debate, celloguy, it seems this was the point where it all got a bit heated, which is a shame because up to that point all your posts had been exceptionally charming. Unfortunately I can see why people would get upset at having their views described as "quite bizarre and absolutely untenable", and in that context being described as "you people".

I think that there is a valid distinction between the challenges of cello playing to an adult learner, and the challenges of singing to an adult learner. What I am less sure of is whether it is any easier to lump instruments apart from the voice all together (eg piano and cello). To put it in the context of your quest for information I don't think that an ability of an adult learner to get grade VIII distinction on piano or voice definitively proves his or her ability to get grade VIII distinction on cello, or vice versa.

If one takes the example of sight reading, I could see an argument for saying there are more similarities in the challenge posed to the cellist and the singer, than to the cellist and the pianist. For instance faced with a sustained note with a crescendo, there would be challenges of intonation, tone production and dynamic with greater similarity for the cellist and the singer than for the pianist. I think the pianist can delegate the pitch of his middle C to the piano tuner in a way which neither the singer not the cellist can.

On the other hand, the job of a pianist in some ways reminds me of the job of a conductor of a symphony orchestra. They are more often left in command of all the different lines of harmony, melody and countermelody simultaneously, and a requirement to understand them and shape them musically in a way which is different to the job of a cellist holding a single melodic or harmonic line.

Then again, if one is looking at issues of breath control, the singer probably has more in common with wind or brass players than the pianist or the string player do.

Every musical instrument, including the voice, presents different challenges which may be managed more or less well by different people.

I can understand that you may wonder if Katyjay, despite only taking singing lessons as an adult, may have something of a "leg up" as a result of perhaps having sung, albeit without lessons, throughout her life.
To which could be added an apparent longstanding interest in music evidenced by her mention elsewhere of having passed grade V theory 24 years ago. The point is, that this interest in music and singing would have been an advantage to her whatever she had decided to take up. An adult with the potential to develop their singing, including sight singing, to grade VIII distinction level must have exceptional musical potential whatever instrumental context you put them in. Although I don't know the answer to this, I would not be at all surprised to learn that Katyjay would be capable of getting a grade VIII distinction on Cello, if that happened to be her preferred instrument. I would probably back her ability to do this ahead of a randomly selected Grade VIII distinction pianist with no experience of variable pitched instruments.

What one can't do easily is to therefore categorise Katyjay as "not truly an adult learner because of the general musicality of her upbringing". It is part and parcel of being an adult learner that you have life experiences, including musical experiences. I can't think of any of us who have grown up without being exposed to music in some form, and that is part of who we are.

I suppose one could then subdivide and say, "alright then, accepting for a moment that an inherently musical adult learner like Katyjay or the other people mentioned on this thread could get a grade VIII distinction on their favoured instrument, what are the prospects for any randomly selected adult learner? I suspect there are some adult learners who with 20 years of residential training with top musicians would still not achieve a grade VIII distinction on anything. I cannot believe there aren't a substantial number of others who could. The only way of finding out which category you belong to is to give it your best shot and see what happens!

One final question that occurs to me is this. Whoever made the first cello, or bass viol, or whatever - did they make a 1/8 size instrument, give it to a child and wait 15 years to see what it sounded like, or did they make a full sized one, give it to an adult and tell them to get on with it? Adults have always had to deal with the mastery of new inventions, so why should they not be able to master old ones too?

QUOTE

And you told me about John Holt. Oh, but then it turns out that he didn't reach professional level at all... though nobody has deigned to recognize this

With the shifting of goal-posts, was there really any point in replying to this Has celloguy read John Holt's book? I think not. Celloguy's comments are probably more likely to be based on what he's read on the web.

John Holt did play in professional capacity. As an example in the UK, there is a small orchestra in the south west of England called the Brunel Ensemble. They are professionals and the players are paid, but how many out there (public and even some musicians) have even heard of the Brunel Ensemble!!?

The stereotypical view of a "professional classical musician", often only seems to define the narrow band of people who work for orchestra's that are household names. Mention the RPO, LSO or the BBC SO, and even the musically ignorant are likely to have heard of them. Just because a classical musician may not have worked for these orchestra's doesn't preclude them from being professional. The term "professional classical musician" covers a wide expanse - from purely instrumental teaching to playing, and many combinations between the two.

Hello Amanda:

Me again. I haven't read "Never Too Late", as you say, so I got in touch with a cellist and cello teacher who has, and asked whether it was true that Holt had achieved a professional level. I posted her reply here on May 19 2005 12:00 PM (please see above), and here it is again...

>> According to Never Too Late, Holt played in The Little Orchestra of Cambridge, which, I believe, was an amateur group. No longer in existence as far as I know. He also played chamber music, was in a semi-regular quartet that tackled Mozart, Beethoven, etc. But comments within NTL lead me to believe he was an "advancing intermediate" player. Looking at his part for a Haydn quartet that he was assigned for a camp session at Apple Hill, he bemoans the fact that it's largely repeated notes. "Why didn't they send me anything more challenging than this? Do they think I can't play anything harder than this?" But then he shares how once he began working on it, realized it "was harder than it looked. To begin with, it was in the key of F minor, four flats, a key I had never played in." I found this to be an interesting passage and insightful regarding his playing level. <<

This seems to me to be an intelligent and carefully considered summary from a cellist who has read the book. So unless you know something I don't, it is surely absolutely unreasonable for you and everybody else here (!) to keep insisting that Holt reached a professional level, i.e. a professional level as generally understood in the context of Western classical music.

Moving on from Holt... I have since found out about a professional cellist called Robert Marsh who apparently learnt as an adult, though he was already principal trombonist in a major symphony orchestra. Similarly, I have also read (I can't remember where) that it was not unheard of in the Baroque and Classical periods for professional players of wind instruments to switch to cello when age or ill health prevented them from playing their original instruments; though I think it's quite possible that these people had been multi-instrumentalists from childhood, as I believe was common at the time.

I have yet to discover an adult cello starter who has reached professional level from scratch (i.e. without already being a professional player on another instrument). If you find out about such a person, please let me know.

Subsequent edit: To prevent misunderstanding, I'd like to clarify my opinion once more. Although I think it's practically impossible for an adult starter to reach a professional level, I think it's perfectly possible to reach what we might call advanced amateur level, and no doubt most people here will achieve such a level in the not-too-distant future. Enjoy

What does it really matter?

The whole point is to be the best you possibly be and still enjoy making music!

QUOTE

I have yet to discover an adult cello starter who has reached professional level from scratch (i.e. without already being a professional player on another instrument). If you find out about such a person, please let me know.

Ill let you know when i get there..... Ill be the one in the big puffy dress on last night of the proms with big red hair hiding behind my cello......

I startd cello at 21.... i considder that to be an adult...... as does the law etc etc....

unfortunatly life isnt like a science experiment.... you cant mainpulate all the variables.... people will have different exposures to music.... the longer you have been alive before you start learning the more variables or experiances you will have been exposed to.

really what celloguy needs to prove his point is to lock someone in a box for 30 years and then give them a cello, let them out and see what happens.....

one important point is that as children we are brought up geared towards getting through some sort of education system to come out with a skill that will enable us to make money. Starting an instrument while at school opens up the possibily much more for carrying this forward into a career. During this time we have very little other responsibility and can concentrate fully on it.

However one would hope by age 30 people would already have a carreer and thus the manic drive towards finiding something to do to get money to put food on the table would have subsided and thus music as a career may now not be logistially possible as you dont have a free house and free food and someone doing all your washing for you while you practise for 2 hours a night. Many adult learners do not have the time and or cant risk thier financial security to pack in work and relearn a whole new trade...

In conclusion its just not clear cut.....
ANYONE who gets to grade 8 distinction deserves a pat on the back... moreso if they are an adult as most likeley they will have had to have made more sacrifices to get t here...

Weather person A is given a cello at 4 or 40 they still have the same potential to get to be a professional. I would also put forward that the mental attitues towards adult learners and the non career making attitude that adult learners mostly have (lets face it, alot of adults learn as its something completely different to what the do from 9-5, thats the appeal...) There isnt the drive there in adult learners to do that in many cases..... and its not a bad thing.... but i do belive many people could achive it if the drive is there...

Attitue plays such a huge part in music making. If the majority of adult learners dont have the attidue or drive to become professional who cares? If you dont have the drive to be grade 8 distinction or head of an international orchestra, who cares?
if you get in from work play you instrument for an hour and come away smiling then every second you spend learning is worth its weight in gold....

pinkoi
x

***end waffle***

This is what happens when the statistics get too squishy.

Watch where you tread.

QUOTE (onion @ May 13 2005, 06:02 PM)

...in the adult learners orchestra that I go to there are a variety of people with different levels of prior learning, but progress seems more closely related to motivation and time spent practicing rather - which are variables it is hard to factor for.

In the rosy past I would have sent a PM, but...

I would be very interested to know where your orchestra is based. I'm always interested to hear about other orchestras for adult learners as I run one myself. I already know about ELLSO (East London Late Starters' Orchestra), the string orchestra in Yorkshire that George Kennaway conducts and the Cobweb orchestras linked to the Northern Sinfonia. Sometimes we can exchange music.

QUOTE (celloguy @ May 21 2005, 07:23 PM)

I have yet to discover an adult cello starter who has reached professional level from scratch (i.e. without already being a professional player on another instrument).

Yet looking back through this long thread you said

"My own belief (not based on statistics either hard or soft) is that a dedicated adult should be able to progress to upper-intermediate or advanced amateur level, but that the higher levels are basically reserved for child starters:"

If by upper intemediate would mean about grade 5, and by advanced you mean grade 7 - 8 then the simple truth is that there are lots of people who have played at a higher standard than that after starting as an adult. Don't take my word for it, come to adult learner concerts, join in and listen and you will be amazed what people have acheived.

The fact that nobody can name a professional cellist who started learning as an adult has absolutely no bearing on the question you are asking. I honestly don't think you can have any comprehension of the gap between the "upper intemediate and advanced level" that you are are talking about here and the level of accomplishment needed to be a true professional. There is scope for huge acheivement before you can even begin to talk about professional status.

There are literally hundreds of musicians around the fringes of the professional stage, who scrape a living by teaching, occaisional concerts, accompanying etc. Most are fabuluously tallented with years of training behind them, and play at a standard that would bewilder an 'advanced amatueur'. Even if you started as a 5 year old, had the most supportive parents, the best teachers, won every prize going, studied at the best colleges then you chances of making it even into this very poorly paid group are very slim.

QUOTE

one would hope by age 30 people would already have a carreer and thus the manic drive towards finiding something to do to get money to put food on the table would have subsided and thus music as a career may now not be logistially possible as you dont have a free house and free food and someone doing all your washing for you while you practise for 2 hours a night. Many adult learners do not have the time and or cant risk thier financial security to pack in work and relearn a whole new trade...

That's the theory. Although these days many people are changing careers any time from their mid-twenties to their mid-forties. Stress is just one factor for so many making changes - we only have to look at those jacking in city jobs and heading for the countryside or training and becoming self-employed plumbers, electricians, pig-farmers etc.

Another interesting point is that we are expected to make choices at school (in our early to mid teens) which are likely to pigeon-hole us into a single type of job for our entire life. How many of us aged 13 or 14 really knew what we'd want to do for a career or a job Some fall into careers by default, but a vast majority of the population end up being swept along by the tide and into jobs which they either hate, or do just because that's where they ended up and it pays the bills - spending 45+ years like that?? no wonder people have nervous breakdowns or end up on anti-depressants.

The huge increase in the number of distance learning and part-time courses now encourages and gives many the ideal opportunity to learn and qualify in subjects they've had a passion for, or perhaps didn't have the opportunity to study in their youth. This cuts out the risk-taking by not having to throw in your exisiting job before taking the plunge and at the same time opens the door to a career or work they have a passion for and a real understanding of.

The opportunity for mature students to qualify before the career change, has opened up a whole new ball game in the employment market. Obviously this takes a lot of comittment, but if you really want to do it, anything is possible. I did a degree in physics while still working full-time, and a friend of mine who studied with me, who also works full-time, also had two children and a husband to deal with.

There is no such word as CAN'T We spend virtually our entire adult life working, do you really want to spend it doing work you really can't stand ?? then make the comittment to yourself to change things for the better....without the need to burn bridges beforehand.

Hello StuMac:

I can certainly agree with much of what you say this time. Though I'd point out that I haven't said that "advanced amateur" = G7/8; those are words you're putting into my mouth. I'm sure you're right that there's a very long road between G8 and orchestral pro; as I'm sure you're right that some adult starters progress some way along this road.

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 23 2005, 03:41 PM)

There is no such word as CAN'T

As my dad used to say.....
Can't? What do you mean you can't? I'll tell you son, the only thing you can't do, is strike a match on a kipper.

QUOTE (Fletch @ May 23 2005, 06:51 PM)

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 23 2005, 03:41 PM) There is no such word as CAN'T  :D As my dad used to say..... Can't? What do you mean you can't? I'll tell you son, the only thing you can't do, is strike a match on a kipper.

Or open a tin of beans with a banana..

QUOTE (andante_in_c @ May 23 2005, 06:20 PM)

QUOTE (Fletch @ May 23 2005, 06:51 PM) QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 23 2005, 03:41 PM) There is no such word as CAN'T   As my dad used to say..... Can't? What do you mean you can't? I'll tell you son, the only thing you can't do, is strike a match on a kipper. Or open a tin of beans with a banana..

Or balance a worm on its tail

QUOTE

Or balance a worm on its tail

or herd cats

M

QUOTE

or herd cats

or get a fish to ride a bike!! Yeh ok point taken there. What I was trying to say is that if you really want to change something from what you don't like, to something you do like, if you put your mind to it there is no reason why you cannot succeed.

...and before anyone else jumps in there with the bad jokes, 'suceed' is what a toothless budgie does

good one Amanda... well, bad, actually... lol... you know what I mean eh?

hi dacapo,

i currently play with ELLSO - so sorry, no new group for you to find out about. Although I am currently in the process of returning to live in the North East of England so I am looking at the cobweb orchestra at the moment as a possible new venture for me. I think the work of groups such as ELLSO is invaluable in giving people a good start to learning an instrument, especially with all the ensemble playing that is involved. I can't imagine being an adult learner learning alone. The commitment of those adults learning alone with just a weekly lesson (or less) is amazing. Not something that I could do.

As for adult learners becoming professional musicians, I have to say that there is a wealth of different ways of doing that. I know several adult learners who either live from, or considerable supplement their income, by providing music at weddings, funerals, in posh hotels and restaurants etc, and also being sessional musicians. It might not be playing in one of the well known symphony orchestras or at a famous opera house, but it pays the bills and is professional in my books.

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 24 2005, 11:14 AM)

...and before anyone else jumps in there with the bad jokes, 'suceed' is what a toothless budgie does  :P  :lol:  :lol:

A budgie with TEETH

But yes I totally agree. If you want it, go for it........and don't listen to any negativity. "Carpe Diem" indeed

Jane

Hi there

For what it's worth I have been learning piano for 2 years now with no previous muscial experience- didn't even know where middle C was before I started! I passed my grade 3 last March and felt a great sense of achievement.

I would love to progress to a much higher level but am not the slightest bit interested in becoming a professional musician. The enjoyment of making music and sense of achievement when I feel I've made progress is enough for me. I do have ambitions i.e to be able to compose for fun and to accompany my partner on the violin and to gain more confidence with performing.

Whilst I do see why you may be interested in statistics in adult learners progressing to become professional musicians I would be more interested in statistics regarding adult learners improving mental agility through learning something as complex and demanding as music in later life. I suspect it's a little like physical exercise if you continue to flex your brain cells it's possible that your overall mental agility and faculties are improved in later life.


I think another forum member mentioned the fact that now it's commonplace for adults to learn new skills later in life ie changing career etc. So maybe this is a relativley new concept, previously I believe it has been thought that you have to be below the age of 18 to absorb knowledge and new skills.

I think the biggest barrier to adult learners is A) Attitude- ie how many times have you heard someone say " Oh I'm too old to do that!" or " I would love to learn that but I don't have enough time!" and Confidence - I'll say no more we all know about performance nerves on this forum!

So just enjoy your music, be the best that you can and who knows where you may end up.


Annette

Just as an example of what can be acheived:

at age 42 I went back to college while holding down a fulltime job. Trained on computers and passed the ECDL. I then went on to start typing skill for the first time ever (didn't do it at my school so had never tried). Managed to get a job as an administrator in a Dr's surgery. (after 23 years as a sewing machinist and with no experience). Went on to take a Medical Secretarial course and passed. Did tying skills including Medical Audio typing to OCR level 2 (previously RSA 2). Now, at 46, I'm a Clinical Data Supervisor in a Dr's surgery fulltime and learning flute and piano.

Moral of the story?

You can do ANYTHING if you just set your mind to it and put in enough effort.

Just go for it!

Hi Semele,

Excuse me interrupting a separate conversation, I just wanted to add to the topic.

At a guess, fewer adults (post-formal education?) have aspirations to stardom than the young but if they make it, that is what counts.

I'm hung up on the word 'learning'. Do people of THAT calibre actually learn much or have they got it already and learning is a formality?

There doesn't seem an argument about whether its possible unless age affects physical performance like dance. Many professions allow for 'late entrants' (not all, like medicine) so its up to the person how far they go. In music though your fame is partly affected by recording contracts and they seem to favour the young - else your success will depend on the sacrifices youre prepared to make. Yes?

Hello all,

This thread looks like petering out anyway. The original topic was

"What would be interesting would be to see some hard statistics comparing the ABRSM exam performance of child starters and adult starters."

There don't seem to be any. From reading the answers, it depends on the adult and the child and is inconclusive.

I believe that a "post-30" tends to learn more tactically than a child who learns by repetition, practice and example in the earlier stages. Just a thought.

As an adult learner I findthe big problem is time. If I had as much time as kids, devoting whole days to formal and informal learning, no worries about mortgages or housekeeping, where the next meal is coming from etc. I'd probably do better because I can drive what I do and how I do it.

QUOTE (Thisisus @ May 29 2005, 07:39 AM)

As an adult learner I find the big problem is time. If I had as much time as kids, devoting whole days to formal and informal learning, no worries about mortgages or housekeeping, where the next meal is coming from etc. I'd probably do better because I can drive what I do and how I do it.

Oh yes, what a luxury...all those holidays!!

I can remember going for my violin lesson just as the previous pupil (a school child) was leaving and my teacher encouraging him to practice during the school holidays. The child pulled a face at the thought and I just had to say to him that I would love the opportunity to have more time to practice.

I guess the difference may be because I want to do it and am frustrated with my lack of available practice time, and the child might have been under pressure from parents and would prefer to do something more trendy in the holidays, like play football with his friends.

Success probably in the end just comes down to dedication and application rather than age. I reckon if I did anything 8 hours a day, every day, from the age of 4 (which is what Vengerov did ) I would get good at it, otherwise it would all have been a big waste of time

Trouble is I don't have 8 hours a day, and I didn't start at 4

Jane

QUOTE

I can remember going for my violin lesson just as the previous pupil (a school child) was leaving and my teacher encouraging him to practice during the school holidays. The child pulled a face at the thought and I just had to say to him that I would love the opportunity to have more time to practice.

I think this is the point where you can tell who is really interested in learning to play their instrument and who does it because either they are more or less made to or because it's just something to do.
Those who are interested will see school holidays as a time when they can practice a bit more... those who aren't see them as a time for forgetting all about it.

QUOTE

Trouble is I don't have 8 hours a day, and I didn't start at 4

It's an urban myth that you have to start learning a musical instrument at the age of 4. I know of successful professional players (ok, not soloists) that start at the age of 11 or 12.

On the practice front, think Quality vs. Quantity, or shorter practice sessions committed to a daily basis. Adults have more complex thought patterns, and what might take a 15 year old several hours of repetition to get right, a mature adult could sort out in half an hour given a few moments of strategic thought beforehand. Sometimes repetition is the only way to get the muscle memory formed totally, but doing half an hour or an hour of real quality practice and problem solving, is just as good as hacking away at it for 5 or 6 hours without any particular goal in mind.

I'm probably one of those few lucky people, with the amount of practice I can still do each day. Being single with no man or dependents is a huge bonus on usage of time - all those domestic chores like cleaning and gardening can be done some other time, for me the music always comes first. If I'm really honest I could fit in 4 hours practice a day, but working knocks the stuffing out of me, so generally it's 2 1/2 to 3 hours. If I'm really busy with work and pushed for time, I still try to fit in at least 1/2 and hour. It's far better than absolutely no practice at all....

Oh dear! Here we go again!!

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 30 2005, 09:32 AM)

On the practice front, think Quality vs. Quantity, or shorter practice sessions committed to a daily basis. Adults have more complex thought patterns, and what might take a 15 year old several hours of repetition to get right, a mature adult could sort out in half an hour given a few moments of strategic thought beforehand. Sometimes repetition is the only way to get the muscle memory formed totally, but doing half an hour or an hour of real quality practice and problem solving, is just as good as hacking away at it for 5 or 6 hours without any particular goal in mind.

Amanda, you're so right.

Its about being focused and making best use the limited practice time I have by being more structured in what I do.

So why am I posting here and not practising then

Better get back to the music room.

Jane

QUOTE (AmandaL @ May 30 2005, 09:32 AM)

On the practice front, think Quality vs. Quantity, or shorter practice sessions committed to a daily basis. Adults have more complex thought patterns, and what might take a 15 year old several hours of repetition to get right, a mature adult could sort out in half an hour given a few moments of strategic thought beforehand.

I agree with this too. I believe as adults we have a greater ability to break down and analyse the technicalities of what we are trying to do and then make any necessary adjustments. Thats if our old bones will let us

QUOTE

So why am I posting here and not practising then

It's called networking

QUOTE

Thats if our old bones will let us

Inflexibility comes from not having kept the joints moving, rather than getting older. An excellent example of this is the ballet dancer Alicia Markova. I think she was 93 when she died, but still had joints as flexible as a 30 year old. That was because she had never totally given up doing ballet classes.

Flexing the joints around (gently at first if this is something you've not done since childhood) is the only way to ensure mobility as you get older. However, adults don't have the time to generally do this on a regular basis - what with work, domestic life etc. - which results in a gradual decline of mobility from late youth onwards

Andrew Manze started playing the violin aged 11; he is now a very well regarded (Baroque) soloist and director of the English Concert, and when you see him working he also appears to be the happiest man alive . You definitely don't have to start at 4!

Says it all really. Hard work (plus a bit of natural ability) goes a long, long way!!

It's such a pity the urban myth of "only starting very young will mean you succeed", becomes the conditioning mental barrier to so many peoples learning.