I am worried about my strong-minded daughter. It's a long story but to cut it short, she basically wants to finish and play well the grade 4 and grade 5 violin syllabus (not the exams, thank goodness!) in 7 months for auditions. Can this be achieved?

She thinks she can because she is willing to practise and also people tell her she's a fast learner! I don't know whether to share in her enthusiasm or to slow her down or to pull her back. I have spoken with her quite a few times now and once in front of her tutor, about not rushing. But at her age, it did not seem to register! Personally, I have heard of some kids who, when their own expectations failed, never want to touch their instruments again. This is a real tragedy. My sister told me about a teenager who finished grade 8 but never want to touch his violin ever again.

What do mums and violin teachers think?

I recall, for example, that young Menuhin was so sore about losing his first (and last) violin competition that HE, NOT his parents, wanted to change his teacher rightaway! He never entered another! That's how young kids are!

First port of call, talk to her teacher!

Yes, I should think it IS possible - whether it is possible or advisable for your daughter is another matter.

Well, it was the teacher who hinted it to her in the first place when he said laughingly and quite out of the blue that she'll be doing grade 5 in a few months' time. I was so surprised that I said nothing then. She had then completed the first 3 grades within 3 terms. But as you well know, grade 1 to 3 is no big deal whereas grade 5 most definitely, is.

Moreover, although he is a wonderful teacher in many ways, he is not a parent. As such, I thought I cannot and should not expect him to "see" a parent's concern that "it" may not be advisable. What I need is a neutral third party's view from those who have similar teaching experience of kids who are over-enthusiastic. Do they LOSE interest when these kids fall short of their own expectations? HARD question. Maybe since every child is unique, there is NO telling how each child will react except on hindsight???

Still, I guess, maybe you are right. Need to talk to him without her being present so she does not see what are essentially MY doubts just in case she thinks I am not FOR her or do not believe in her dream.

*nods* I see your point.

If she really has talent for the instrument, and we know she practises a good deal, then she could very well do it. Grade 1-3 in as many terms is no mean achievement (I'm curious to know what kind of marks she got?) - my teacher at primary school considered me reasonably talented, and I started when 7 and got grade 3 with distinction at 10 ish (don't recall exactly) and I think by that point I was the only one of my original group left; I did grade 4 and a few grade 5 pieces before I left primary school, and from what I know of the children learning now, several of them have not got beyond grade 1 with well over a year, it may be several, of teaching, and certainly I only know a small number with the same access to teaching who got beyond grade 3 or 4. A pupil who did grade 4 at 10 was one of her star pupils (and this was a very talented teacher) so you can see that to have got through her grades so quickly, especially if she has achieved respectable marks, is very good... many people play for well over a year before they even do grade 1, or even much longer (even children, who in SOME respects have an advantage when getting used to the fairly unnatural poise of a violinist)

It is hard to say what her reaction would be if she didn't manage it - children vary so much in their reaction to things like that.

But definitely talk to your teacher, about how realistic that goal is, how much practice will be required to achieve it, etc. Many music students, especially the talented and dedicated ones (of which it seems your child is certainly one) skip grades or progress faster than one a year or even one a term. This may well be within her grasp. Her teacher should at least be able to give you an idea of what the likelihood is and what she will need to do to get to that stage.

Depending on the results of that, and how you think your daughter will react, it MAY be worth having a chat with her and either asking why she is rushing, why does she feel it is necessary, and will she be disappointed if she doesn't feel she has achieved the goal she has set herself. You know better than I what her reaction to those questions will be, but it's worth having a bit of a probe and seeing whether she has considered what she is taking on and why.

I have 2 children very similar to your daughter.

My 9 year old has completed grade 4 violin with distinction and is sitting grade 4 trumpet this week after nearly 18 months of lessons. He is storming through his 2nd instrument. However he is slowly down as it is technically getting harder in both instruments. I think children will peak and realise that it is much harder and needs more work and I have to support him more now than when he first started.

My 8 year old has also completed grade 4 piano with distinction and after less than a year of lessons is sitting grade 2 cello this afternoon. He is adamant that he will complete his grade 4 by this time next year. I mean this time last year he hadnt even started the cello.

They both hope to complete grade 5 in both studies by christmas next year which is no mean feat at the ages of only 10. They know they are fast learners too not only in music but at school too having just receive their school reports.


As long as you support your child they should thrive in their music.... my kids are all too aware that sometimes exams are much harder than they seem and results are not always as expected. They both work very hard for their exams and deserve to score well but they also work very hard in their bands/orchestra which give them good ensemble skills to support their solo playing.

I always tell them if they dont succeed 1st try, try again and learn by your mistakes... if dont have mistakes in your playing you will have nothing to learn and improve.... dont know if that makes sense to you.

While sprinting through all the grades may be needed for an audition your child must cover a range of repetotoire to be considered that grade. There are many people who say that I can play grade 5 exam music but cannot play anything else at that level or sight reading remotely near that level.

I teach children of all ages and I have come across children that sprint through the grades with another teacher and then come to me and I find that they cannot sight reading at grade 2 even after sitting the grade 5 exam !!! Some kids can rote learn all the way to grade 5 and still be unsure of notation reading which can be very worrying.

I am not saying your daughter is like this just that there are situation where this happens. Make sure she plays plenty of music be it easy or hard the more she plays the easier sight reading becomes.

PM if you want to chat more about it.
Have to go collect my son for his cello exam

yes, talk tothe teacher without her there. Don't forget that there's an awful lot more to music than passing exams. Does she have confidence to perform to audiences? has she done festivals & does she enjoy sharing her music with others. This will make a huge difference to how kids feel abouttheir music. Get a group together of like minded kids, do workshops with others, play little recitals to friends - all this helps develop the child's love of music. After all if u cant share it wots the point?! My daugher's 10 & done Grade IV with distinction & also plays the piano. She has no inhibitions about playing to others, can learn stuff by heart & plays from the heart but also has good basic grounding in notation, theory & all the difficult stuff you need to build on yr playing talent. No good reading the words in a book if you dont understand what its saying! If she works well togoal setting then go for it, but be careful u know how to deeal with failure before it happens.
hope this helps.

Thanks, all. Really appreciate your responses. Will read them all again when I have time tomorrow and try to see what I can get out of them. She's 8 and academically gifted so playing from memory and theory work is fine for her. She loves performing though admittedly it makes her a bit nervous at times when doing solos.

We avoid exams like a plague as a mtr of principle so grade 3 is her first and hopefully last exam before the compulsory grade 5 theory and grade 8 practical if she still wants to be a musician at 17? She did not do grades 1 and 2 as I'm personally against exams but as she began to play just one grade 3 exam piece quite naturally after 6 months' lessons, and then went on to finish all the other stuff in the 8th month quite easily, too, we agreed with her teacher's suggestion, that's all, just for the experience.

Will read all the above mails a few more times before talking to both of them APART!

Thanks, ALL.

I have read these wonderful replies and found them all very helpful indeed.

I have also just spoken to both of them and to my surprise and great relief, the teacher (lovely man!) said she's not rushing at all. Apparently, she's enjoying it and not finding the pace a pressure. He has had other kids like her who just shoot past for the love of playing. It's just one of those things, that if you LOVE something, you get better at it, naturally, as long as you practise regularly. He didn't say anything about the need for any talent/more practice/more time (sigh) to go fast as the purpose of her stretching herself a bit is not for exams as I've mentioned earlier but for her, it is for next year's auditions. For that, potential (as in her case since she started so late on the verge of 8) matters just as much as achievement. What a relief.

As a mum, I am very protective - can't help it / maternal instincts and as such I do so want her to have time to enjoy life and time to stand and stare. Other kids? I don't judge but I do, mine but in I hope a loving way.

THANKS< ALL.

Let us know how it all pans out won't you!

Yup! End of March for audition and April for results is a looooooooong way!

From a personal perspective, this seems to be exactly what I did.

I had been practising the grade 4 violin syllabus and found it very easy (I thought grade 3 was harder.) It was a lucky coincidence in a way that my teacher had been ill, resulting in us missing the exam date for the term. In the end, we decided to push on and start grade 5. I certainly haven't regretted it. The pieces are obviously more difficult and there are technicalities in the music that require further knowledge or experience (like the anoying harmonic things in 'Album Leaf' ) but generally, if your daughter picks things up quickly and is determined, it's very achievable. I have an audition on wednesday for an orchestra that requires grade 5 standard, and though I think I am well capable of this, my teacher has advised me, as it is an unaccompanied audition, to play from my grade 4 pieces. I think this says something about the quality of the pieces in both books. Should your daughter not complete both syllabuses in 7 months, grade 4 should be fine.

P.S The hardest part for both exams is the scales. Grade 5 in particular, it seems that a lot of new position work is needed. A greater fluency with changes would look great at auditions.

I think she will make it easily!

When I set myself insanely high goals (which are mostly fantastical) I sort of know I won't acheive them, but I practise like a mother on heat nonetheless. I suppose having this sort of attitude is why I took grade 3 classical guitar within three months of playing, no previous grades! It's good to be positive. I try not to get blinded by ego, I think about what I would do if I failed, so I'm always prepared for the worse.

Maybe she's rushing because she thinks she's amazing (which is probably true)! After grade three my head blew up and my parents almost couldn't house it anymore. I was pathetically deluded when I first heard Paco De Lucia, though, so my (metaphorical) head sort of shrunk. Anywho...

Ask her how she feels!

Am I too late? Sorry

Thanks, L'espirit. Great point - talking abt feelings is paramount to kids, I agree 100%! No, she's not big-headed at all. Quite on the contrary, in fact. Her school teachers have described her as a down to earth and ice-cold confident academic who seldom speaks but is friendly when spoken TO!!! At home, she's still DTE but quite talkative and to her brother, bossy!!! So bossy! Grrr...

She has done a few solo performances including one at a recent prizewinners concert where she played Dancla's so beautifully that one lady who sat near me almost cried. Mind you, it was only a grade 3 piece - no big deal - but the music was very much in tune, flowy, expressive and the vibrato looks so natural - it was good! The teachers said - it was excellent. Anyway, when told by folks she was "amazing" that night - she asked - Was I, really? I don't know what to say. Later, she REALLY thought they were just being kind and said - I was SO embarassed.

She is down to earth because she reads widely. As a bookworm and science fan, she reads about not just music but everything else non-musical. She knows about wonder folks like Menuhin, Perlman, etc. In any case she has also heard about a close relative who could beat her anytime as we were told he (deceased) was a self-taught musician. She can never beat that!!!

I'm not worried now, now that the teacher has told me that it's (preparing for the auditions) no rush for her.

But kwikspell made a very good point - it's true - it's better to play a simple piece very well, according to a well-known cellist, than to show off (quote) and play a challenging piece manageably!

Playing a simple piece so beautifully that someone cried is a darn sight more difficult than playing a difficult piece reasonably well. Sounds like she's a very musical child, and as long as she's not going to beat herself up if she DOESN'T make it through all that work, then she will be fine and should go for it, by the sounds of it.

As Kwikspel said, scales are at least as great a challenge to most aspiring violinists. She has vibrato down pat and is good at staying in tune and being expressive, if she can master the rudiments of position changing then she'll be well on her way. She sounds like a very talented young lady!

Tess! Awfully sorry to take this off topic. About your PM. Your inbox is full or something. Were you looking for instructional DVDs for SG, or just live shows or ones of him playing? If you search on www.amazon.co.uk for 'Stephane Grapelli' a number of DVDs come up, hope I helped

Tess! Awfully sorry to take this off topic. About your PM. Your inbox is full or something. Were you looking for instructional DVDs for SG, or just live shows or ones of him playing? If you search on www.amazon.co.uk for 'Stephane Grapelli' a number of DVDs come up, hope I helped

[/quote]

No worry. Just ordered Stephane Grapelli - A Life in Jazz.

By the way, he's one of Menuhin's 2 idols as he's not only a great violinist but also a self-taught one. Menuhin was amazed by him and also by David Oistrakh! Funny, how people vote Menuhin as the greatest violinist BUT the old man vote some other folks so unlike himself!

[quote=Tess,Jul 12 2005, 07:18 PM]
Tess! Awfully sorry to take this off topic. About your PM. Your inbox is full or something. Were you looking for instructional DVDs for SG, or just live shows or ones of him playing? If you search on www.amazon.co.uk for 'Stephane Grapelli' a number of DVDs come up, hope I helped

[/quote]

No worry. Just ordered Stephane Grapelli - A Life in Jazz.

By the way, he's one of Menuhin's 2 idols as he's not only a great violinist but also a self-taught one. Menuhin was amazed by him and also by David Oistrakh! Funny, how people vote Menuhin as the greatest violinist BUT the old man vote some other folks so unlike himself!

[/quote]

And you should hear some of their recordings together, if not for your daughter (or school? I forget!) by them for yourself! Jealousy *shiver* it's such an amazing piece.

The DVD is for all the kids.

CDs aren't attractive any more these days to kids who grow up watching TV and playing colourful computer games! HOWEVER, once you have CAUGHT their attention, no matter how you did it initially, they WILL listen to the CDs. Personally, I also find that LIVE shows are magic but once an artist is dead and gone, a LIVE recorded show is still a great intro to get the kids jumping for joy.

My girl and I are very enthusiastic about music and we can't help sharing it in school including LSO's educational concerts and workshops for kids which we stuck on the school's notice board! She also plays in assemblies and the kids love it! They came up to me full of enthusiasm at the end of the schoolday to let me know. I guess music is something you can't help but share since it conveys/communicates so much of yourself or your feelings, really, and in a way, the listeners' feelings, too, albeit in some cases, in a quiet sort of way.

You know what Grapelli is like. His violin was his soul! Like the violinist whom we saw on The Pianist who said - You took my violin, you took my soul!

Tess

I went to see Stephane Grapelli play in Dublin many years ago, sellout concert, and he was out of this world on violin. Brought the house down.
Half way through, he put his instrument down, sat at the grand piano unexpectedly, and played some incredible jazz improvisations - a total natural on piano - if you didn't know, you'd have thought this was his main instrument.
Why is it that so much talent can be squeezed into so few people!

I must watch out for the LSO educational concerts - good idea, thanks.

INDY,
You or your wife MUST take your little girl there!

The last time we went, we took the kids there and one Year 5 girl was so thrilled that I could see the brilliance or shine in her eyes! She enjoyed herself so much that she said - I NEVER knew a concert could be THIS much fun!!! She has only ever been to inter-school concerts before but not one specifically designed for upper primary (7+) school kids. Having said that there were lots of 4-6 yr olds there, too! We were encouraged to bring an instrument to play along with the orchestra in one or two places (music sent to you to practise beforehand) but fortunately, we didn't because on that particular day, it happened to be quite crowded!

The conductor paused before every piece to explain in simple language something abt the composer and the piece about to be played and there were also accompanying overhead visuals to stimulate those who aren't that imaginative. Sometimes he cracks jokes from time to time. Good fun.

The next one shd be in Nov/Dec and then March and then one more some time in the summer - 3 in a year. The LSO plays brilliantly and it is only £3 per child and £5 per adult. You can't ask for more.

Tess

Hi

It's great that your daughter is doing so well at the violin and enjoying it so much, but one thing strikes me....

I wouldn't really recommend doing grade 5 at the age of 8. To play grade 5 pieces appropriately and well, you need a degree of emotional maturity that just isn't normally available to an 8 year old. Also, I'm not keen on your use of the term "shoot past"... shoot past who, exactly? The others? Is it a race?

Violinia

[quote=Violinia,Jul 13 2005, 10:43 PM]

I wouldn't really recommend doing grade 5 at the age of 8. To play grade 5 pieces appropriately and well, you need a degree of emotional maturity that just isn't normally available to an 8 year old. Thanks, Violinia, I couldn't agree more. We have decided to let the teacher decide as he's clearly a perfectionist, anyway. He's also a brilliant teacher so we trust him.

Also, I'm not keen on your use of the term "shoot past"... shoot past who, exactly? Absolutely, Violinia, I agree with this, too. She meant - shoot past grades, thereby doing a lot less exams like grades 3 and 8 only instead of the whole lot. But when I asked the teacher and said she doesn't need any pressure from my hubby or him, or need to rush, he agreed and explained that she did not miss/skip anything. He'd taught her everything from grade 1 to grade 3 (and more, things like vibrato, etc, bec she was simply able to do it, so why not, he said) for this month's exam. He's good! My hubby was jealous and told her one day, in a huff - Why can't I get you to do the same thing that ... can! Answer - That's because you've asked in a commanding way, not in a positive waylike ... Yikes! We parents are learning, too...

Hi Tess

Oh that's OK then - I thought you meant 'shoot past everybody else'! My mistake

The teacher must be brilliant, athough I do find generally (as a violin teacher myself) it's so much easier to be a good teacher than a good parent! As a teacher you have endless reserves of patience and good sense, whereas in my own case as a parent - I go off the deep end and do all the things parents aren't meant to do. But then my son is 16 - not exactly a delightful age unless a miracle has occurred; he's also an only child, which probably doesn't help. Or I'm just a dreadful mum (it's been a bad day).

I tried teaching him violin when he was 6 (he begged me to) but it all ended in tears even though we played this whole game where I pretended not to be his mum, and knocked on the door etc etc. It worked a treat for a while and then he started arguing in lessons, and the whole thing fell apart. He's been learning sax for years now, plays well, adores his teacher and all is well.

I agree with your teacher about not doing each grade, which can be so laborious if not downright tedious. I jumped straight in at grade 5 as a child, as did my son, and we both did well (distinction for me, honours for him). But some kids are keen to plough through all the grades, enjoying the markers at each stage. Different strokes for different folks I guess, and the fast learners (usually because of lots of encouragement and help at home plus a great teacher) often don't need to do the early grades.

Good luck to you and your daughter - I hope she goes far!

Violinia