Should you try to play your recital from memory, or is it unnecessary? I think that you seem to have a better sense of performance when playing from memory, but I feel more confident with the music. Do the examiners find playing from memory very important, to the point where it affects your score?

for piano, they recommend memorising, since this is most common practice in recitals, and the diploma can be thought of as an examined imitation of a public performance. you do have a better sense of performance and expression without the score. however you won't be penalised for having the score (provided there are no disruptive pauses for page turns of course - you can take a page-turner)

you may however then be asked in the viva why you chose to use the score/why you didn't. what are the advantages of playing from memory? etc.

I will not play from memory in my coming exam and I will not bring a page turner. My teacher tells me that they won't mind a very short pause for page-turning.

seriously?! is this the same for every other instrument?!

If I do use the music, I would use a page turner, because I have no skill with page turning. However, I think it is a bit tacky to have a page turner, which is the reason why I consider playing from memory.

I would check with the examiners about that. My understanding is the DipABRSM is a performance diploma; performers do not pause at page turns.

Steve

Indeed, very true.

It always suprises me when people say pauses for page turns should not be penalised even in grade exams. Part of the skill of playing the piece is being able to turn the page, or to remember the piece in order to not be able to turn the page. In the same way we wouldn't accept oh I need to pause or disrupt the piece to do that trill we shouldn't accept needing to pause to turn the page. If one has a page turner as one is an accompanist/chamber music player that's fine but in situations where one cannot have a page turner, for whatever reason, one should not expect to be allowed to disrupt the piece.

I beleive the syllabus states that no extra credit will be given for playing from memory, but that performers should consider the performance practice for their instrument. FWIW, I did the piano performance dip and played with the music - didn't do brilliantly, but suspect that's a function of deciding to do the exam in January and sitting it in July (failed) and December (passed) rather than reading the music!

AlexDBS - if you are playing with the music and turning yourself (this is what I did), then you should look at memorising enough of each piece to be able to do the turn where it's convenient, rather than where it's placed. Alternatively, write to the publishers of the pieces now to request permission to use photocopied pages to see you through the awkward turns. You need to show their replies to the examiners.

Best of luck - memorising is the ideal thing to do (wish I had but I was in a rush), but the most important thing is that you go into the exam feeling comfortable. If you're worrying about losing your way in a piece, your mind's not in the right place!

I have given this a bit more thought. Nobody has contradicted my impression that the DipABRSM is a performers' exam.

In this case, anybody pausing at page turns will take a justifiable hammering from the examiner. Pianists using the score will have to do so most unobtrusively to avoid being penalised for poor presentation. Transfer of music to and from the stand and page turning will have to be a seamless part of the 'production'. You will not be able to drop it, fuss with it, even allow it to be noticed without penalty.

With few exceptions, solo piano performances take place from memory. Solo pianists using the score for music other than highly complex 20th century scores risk censure from all sides.

It might be worth while considering that the AB does not appear to offer the DipABRSM as a 'grade 9'; rather the board seems to be offering a professional diploma demanding professional standards.

Steve

You make me nervous.
I will have my exam in coming two weeks and I don't play my pieces well. May be I should expect for a fail. The word "profession" really frighten me.

The requirements for the Dip as a professional-level diploma should not have come as any surprise since it's spelled out pretty thoroughly in the syllabus..

I wish you all the best, but if you really "don't play my pieces well" then I'm afraid you've come to this exam a bit sooner than you should have. Still, take heart from the pass mark of 40%.. it's astonishingly low I think..

..and even then has a 50% pass rate! those 40 marks have to pretty well-earned.

as i've probably said before, the diploma imitates a professional recital. think of what standards you expect of a public recital of your pieces before thinking about entering for it. what wouldn't be acceptable to a public audience won't be acceptable to examiners. (this includes pauses for page turns of course)

if i were examining a piano candidate i'd get a far better impression if they played (well ) from memory, because that's convention for the instrument, and makes things so much smoother and less awkward.

Thinking like this is a mistake.

Examiners will have a criteria list that a performance has to reach in order to gain a pass. Here is the sort of list I had when I was examing 'A' level students, for a pass:
- technical and rhythmic accuracy.
- appropriate level of musical understanding.
- small slips do not interrupt the flow of the music.
- stylistically appropriate.

There were more; I list just a few to give you the idea.

Once the criteria are extablished, then an arbitrary pass mark is set. It matters not a jot whether this is 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% or anything else. A performance will only achieve a pass mark if it meets the criteria set.

I hope this helps. Those if frightens might reflect that standards must be high if a diploma is to achieve any standing in the musical world. There are diplomas still available that fail to do this. The DipABRSM is not one of them.

Steve

Dear Alex,

I am sorry to say this but your teacher was just totally wrong in saying that. In my opinion it's unacceptable that the music be stopped for page-turning.

By the way, I grew up in Hong Kong also.

Best of luck with your exam and I hope you will do well. Even if you don't succeed the first time, you should take it as a positive experience

Steve: you're right of course (LCM dips have a pass mark of 75% which scared the wits out of me at ALCM...) the point I was badly making was here we have a candidate who's panicking.. Thinking of 40% as low was meant as a means of calming him down when he enters the exam (i.e. effectively, don't even THINK about the pass mark.. don't focus on it.. don't build it up into some big obstacle..)

It might just be enough to get him by given the fact he himself says he's still struggling with his pieces with two weeks to go..

To comment on the original question, I played from the music at my exam with a page turner and passed. I was quite surprised when the examiners didn't ask me in the Viva about memorising.

As for the subsequent discussion I think that (some) people might be a little more supportive of someone who is taking their exam in only two weeks. It is nerve wracking enough without others contributing to the nerves through insensitive comments. Alex - best of luck - have you tried to find a page turner? Mine dropped out at the last minute and I was lucky enough to find one on here!

Are you referring to me here? If so, I feel I have been particularly supportive.. It is the candidate himself who admitted "I don't play my pieces well" which - if true and not just a self-deprecating comment - means he has come too soon to the exam..

Or, if you mean me, I feel it is only fair to warn him he has considerable problems. It sounds as though he has mis-understood the requirements of a professional diploma. If my comments and those of others cause him to do a couple of weeks hard practise, they may even help him pass.

There are times when false encouragement is not helpful.

Steve

And if you're referring to me....

I think it's more helpful for someone to go into an exam with an idea of the standard expected and with some expectation that they might fail if this is a possibility (at DipABRSM level it's a possibility for 50+% of candidates, the 50% who will fail plus the extra percentage who will just about pass). This will prevent the person from being so disappointed if they do fail and bitter about the examiners; and if they do pass they will really appreciate their achievement. The best thing to do is just to go into the exam and play your the best you can realising that the outcome could be anything but the only thing you can do is play as well as you can manage on the day. It's important to go in to the exam knowing the reality of what is expected as much as possible, if we tell Alex page turns must not interrupt the flow of his pieces he can work on that in the next two weeks the best he can; if we don't tell him he won't know and will be more likely to fail, I don't think that's kind!

When YAP entered his dip he had no idea of the standard and accepted that sooner or later he'd have to enter to find out what it was, he didn't know whether he'd pass or fail, he just knew it was a lot harder than grade 8 but not how much harder. Fortunately he passed by a clear margin, but was always aware that he didn't really know the standard expected in the exam until the day he got his results. He basically treated it as he would enter, if he passed great, and if he didn't pass then at least he'd learn from it the standard expected and that would be worth the entry fee (after all it's only about 5 lessons with a good teacher...).

I apologise for posting a veiled comment. I usually refrain from saying what I think when I disagree with a posting however having been in Alex' position last year I spoke up because I find Steve's comments unkind, insensitive and arrogant. I expect Alex is already practising and doing his best and I suspect Steve's comments will achieve nothing other than to increase existing worries.

My point is that this close to an exam there is not much that can be changed. So going on about the standard of the Dip is not helpful. I agree there is a place for this discussion and many people's attitudes to taking and re-taking the Dip however I don't agree it is in this thread.

As for a page turner I agree that Alex could do with one and have already suggested it.

Of course there is. Technique can be tightened. Musical aspects can be re examined. Absolute basics can be corrected. As I recall, someone at the beginning of this thread was actually under the disastrous impression that pauses for page turns are not penalised.

It is never too late to correct or change things for the better. Doing so is a requirement for professionals - if something can be improved then it must be.


This thread is about these standards. The contributor who started it was indirectly asking about them in relation to playing from memory. Threads broadening out into wider aspects of a topics a normal occurence on these forums.

Steve

For what it's worth, I don't think Steve or anyone else on this thread had any intention of being cruel or insensitive.

As has been pointed out, two weeks' serious practising at this point could potentially mean the difference between passing and failing the exam.

Obviously different people react in different ways to being told an exam is likely to be harder than they have been informed (and it sounds like Alex has been badly misinformed by his teacher...) but I don't think any of the advice on here has been given to frighten: but to give Alex a chance to do that extra practice and make best use of the exam, even if the end result isn't a pass anyway.

Hope I made some kind of sense here. I don't think anyone is trying to make Alex feel bad; they are trying to help.

Indeed Sarah .

Also if you note the starter of this thread is asking for an indefinite time in the future. If we allow the advice that pauses for page turns will be allowed in the exam to be passed on to this person too, then we'll have two people being penalised in the exam for this mistake so it would be unfair to leave this person with that impression too.

Its not just DipABRSM - I'd expect an uninterrupted performance for any piece at any grade!
On X-factor on Saturday - did you see it - a guy in a boys singing group forgot his lyrics and in the middle of the song stopped and SPOKE!!! He asked could we all start again?!!!! The rest didn't stop - afterwards - you can imagine the roasting he got - the words were spoken very sternly: YOU NEVER INTERRUPT A LIVE PERFORMANCE! and for that very point alone they were eliminated.
No-one likes a live piece of music to be interrupted for any reason.
The show must go on!

I agree. Grade exams, youth festival comps, anything. I train my students to cope with page turns.

I can have some horrendous ones when I am accompanying festivals. Imagine the reaction if I stopped, said, "Sorry. Difficult page turn. Now we can carry on."

Steve

what an idiot

Here in NZ in competitions you are basically out of the running unless you play from memory. In fact I've heard an adjudicator ask people why they didn't!

So what Steve said With few exceptions, solo piano performances take place from memory. Solo pianists using the score for music other than highly complex 20th century scores risk censure from all sides. is correct from my experience. Obviously I'm talking about a competition of a reasonable standard at regional level not the local church hall.

It was my understanding that in normal grade exams you are not penalised for using music.

Believe me as a strongly visual learner who struggles with memorisation I wish the comps. were different but they aren't. Still I'm improving and have just done 3 pieces in a 15 min programme by memory .. so maybe I've cracked it

Tacky?!? I'd much rather attend a recital where the performer had a page turner than where they fumbled about and paused whenever they had an awkward turn, especially if the pianist in question was part of a chamber ensemble, or was accompanying. I'm sure Steve will back me up when I say it constitutes a cruel and unusual punishment to expect a pianist to memorise the accompaniment to the Brahms clarinet sonatas (but Steve, if you're game for it, see you at the next forums concert )

Not only are organists allowed page turners, their turner can even act as registrant. Both hands and feet in full flow then open another stop or two unaided? I don't think so somehow.

Accept the conventions for your instrument, but also do what works best for you. If you have no hope of giving a musical performance with the dots in front of you, then memorise, but if you need the security blanket of the music (like me), then do that. And as Barcarolle says, expect questions in the Viva as to why you did or didn't play from memory.

Alex, I can come to HK to page-turn for your diploma, but I expect the air fares may upset your budget!!

Duly backed up

Self-interest definitely to the fore here. Imagine trying to play the piano part from memory with a 'soloist' with 'a flexible approach to rhythm', as an adjudicator expressed it once.

My teacher told me that a good page turner is as valuable as a professional golfers caddy!
Just doesn't get paid as much. If you have a bad page turner it can all go vry wrong.
In fact she said at some events she has attended abroad the page turner doesn't just skulk about in the background but at the end comes forward and bows and gets applauded.

Ooh, I'm page turning at a (professional) recital tomorrow; do you think I should try it?

Our Honorary Daughter, Kathy, studied at the Birmingham Conservatoire. Whilst there, she acted as a page turner for recitals at Pebble Mill studio broadcast on radio 3.

Early on in her experiences doing this, she turned up at the studio during a particularly wet evening, to turn for a violin\piano recital. She went to reception and introduced herself to the battleaxe behind the counter.

"Join the end of the queue" commanded the Battleaxe, gesturing imperiously towards a queue snaking out through the door into the rain.

We listen to radio 3 on the radio. Live concerts, of course, take place in front of live audiences, so the performers dress accordingly. Kathy had taken some considerable care over her appearance and a spell in the rain would definitely have done it some harm.

She remonstrated, "But I am the page turner for the pianist. I could do with finding out more about the music he is playing."

"Oh, sorry," relented the Battleaxe. "I thought you said your name was Paige Turner."

Still not absolutely sure I believe the story

Steve