Hello all,

This is my first post although I have read through a few threads. I have just started playing again after a lapse of about 5 years (I graduated in 2000) and have decided to work towards my LRSM in Recorder. Can anyone give me any advice, guidance or general encouragement?! I would be interested in hearing what others programmes were. I am thinking of...

Uccellini - Sonata Sesta
Vivaldi - Sonata g min (with some repeats)
Bowen - Sonatina
Gregson - Three matisse impressions (own choice)

Any comments or throughts? Has anyone played the Rubbra?

Any good playing happening in the London or Kent area?!

Hi Andy,

It's nice to hear that you are working towards your LRSM. Your programme sounds like a balanced one (I am not familiar with Boen or Gregson, just know they are comtemporary composers). Have you taken the DipABRSM by any chance?

My own experience with DipABRSM recorder wasn't very pleasant. The examiner was very hard on me because of my "lack of dynamic" and I failed with a ridiculously low mark in the recital. Are you planning on playing with a piano?

Rant Mode on:

I bet if you tried to play the modern pieces on a Helder they'd disqualify you because they'd convince themselves that it was some sort of baroque clarinet rather than a modern recorder.

For someone to get an FRSM (you actually passed that?) on one instrument, and then fail dipABRSM on another instrument, without being well aware of having performed disasterously and therefore fully expecting to fail, is just insane. The only circumstances I could possibly imagine in which that such a person would fail, whilst genuinely thinking themselves pass standard, would be a complete lack of understanding of one's limitations, such pianist or organist with no sense of pitch trying to do an exam on a stringed instrument. Getting such a result when the instrument is from the same family is just incomprehensible IHMO.

Examiners don't expect dynamics from a harpsichord and don't expect keyboard players to adjust intonation, so why should they decide that a recorder, a baroque instrument, should be expected to perfom like a modern flute?

Liz

the meditazioni Rubbra or sonatina?

its a wind instrument...only simple dynamic changes are needed really, like f and p, thats about it! so surely SOME dynamic variation is expected?

I have a CD of Michaela Petri playing 20th Century concertante recorder works.. the dynamic range of the instrument seems miniscule. This coming from it's greatest exponent I wonder if the ABRSM's examiners need a bit of re-education. The number of recorder virtuosi is surely rather limited and any potential candidate can therefore rarely expect a "specialist" at any recorder diploma examination....

Aren't the rules though that they have to at least have a specialist listen to the tape and check or make comments? Unless the AB decide that flautists are as near to recorder players as necessary to act as specialists or something? I'd be interested to hear an offical view on what has happened; has anyone here ever tried to appeal?

Interesting observation, AP, I wonder if Wai Kit Leung would have been successful in appeal. The grounds, as related in this - and other - threads, would suggest so. Perhaps Mr. Leung thought better of it. He has the measure of me it has to be said. If I had achieved FRSM (a long held ambition) I'm not sure I would be attempting another diploma in any other instrument!

Well the problem is, that there is only one way you can adjust dynamics on a wind instrument and that is by putting more air through it (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say, by increasing the air speed). If you have a fixed embouchure such as you do on a baroque recorder, there is absolutely nothing you can do to compensate for the effect the increased air speed has on the tuning unless you change the fingering. So the only way of getting even three different levels of dynamic is to use three different fingerings - and that's for every single note you play. Unsurprisingly, few if any players actually use three different fingerings for every note as routine. I had to drag some of those fingerings out for the Murrill sonata in my LGSM but the comments on that piece reflected the fact that those alternative fingerings actually put me out of tune - obviously I was either over compensating or under compensating. The alternative fingerings are useful to use as an effect but getting exactly the right breath pressure to get them in tune is extremely difficult.

Liz

does "specialist" in fact just mean "woodwind player"?

Liz

I was indeed told that a specialist listened to the tape. But given that the non-specialist examiner who listened to me live gave me a ridiculous low mark, it must have been hard to the other examiner to overturn it.

Besides my "lack of dynamic range", I actually had a problem with the pianist that day -- my original pianist pulled out without my consent five days prior to the exam, and the replacement pianist didn't prepare at all and stop multiple times during the exam. The examiner however was very vicious and mentioned many times on the mark sheet "problems with ensemble", despite the fact that I had clearly indicated to him what happened. He also followed through by giving me a ridiculous low mark in Viva Voce, althought I always scored 2x/25 on my DipABRSM and LRSM in Oboe Performance (and I thought I did better for my recorder exam).

Anyway, I did succeed in my appeal and is given another shot at the exam. This time I will use better instruments (not a plastic one like I did last time), multiple fingerings (for more dynamic range). I hope I won't see the same examiner. He was indeed vicious.

This post will probably get censored pretty soon. I am not trying to defame the Associated Board, just want to tell the truth.

I think pass or fail, this will be my last exam with the Board. I don't think it justifies me entering (not for recorder anyway) before they can find some educated examiners for this instrument.

So you suceeded in your appeal? Well done! Does that mean you get a free re-take of the exam?

Liz

Good luck Wai Kit Leung. I hope you have a much better exam this time.

Just one query - is it worth putting a comment somewhere in your programme notes about the limited dynamic range of a recorder and the consequent problems with tuning?

Best wishes

Katyjay

The 'specialist' for my dip was not a flautist, but a clarinettist, so yes.

Interesting to read this thread!

When I was studying at music college I spent my first year playing nothing much but scales and long notes working on my articulation and dynamics. Piers Adams had a series of exercises he made us do which which transformed the way I play the recorder.

I am hoping that RSM examinars would have enough knowledge of the instruments they are commenting on and at least be able to get a note out of them and understand the different challenges each one produces.

I think that dynamic 'effect' can be created by changes in articulation and phrasing. There is nothing worse than listening to someone play and being able to spot alternate fingerings which are (agreed!) a nightmare and are not transferable between instruments!

Has anyone heard Michaela Petri play the Bach flute sonatas on Recorder? If you listen you can certainly hear how she introduces dynamics by changing her articulation - and *shock* using vibrato!

This could be interesting as I have only ever taken TCL exams!

And it would be the Rubbra Sonatina...

I'm actually quite shocked by that, I had always taken it for granted that a specilialist would specialise on *your* instrument for Dip exams, and would thus know the repertoire and problems/technique/etc inside out.

I'm so glad your appeal was upheld, WKL!

That will not be true dynamic variation though. I know Dolmetsch used to say that was the way to do it, but will a flautist or clarinettist actually know that? Perhaps WKL could tell us whether in fact s/he tried that in the exam?

Liz

I'm pleased to hear that your appeal was successful Wai Kit Leung and good luck for your retake . I think Katyjay's suggestion of emphasising in your programme notes that the recorder can't produce dynamic variation, or at least the methods you use to emulate it (might be a good way to get this in to say, something about the difficulties (possibilities) of producing dynamic range and then in this piece <insert techniques> are used to emulate the dynamic contrast that would be possible on other woodwind instruments). Alternatively, or as well, you could bring it up in the 'anything you would like to add' part of the viva in a tactful way, more as you'd like to discuss the ways it is done than you'd like to tell them that they mustn't knock marks off for it.

I was very suprised actually that specialist examiners were just 'woodwind' players I, like Sarah, had assumed that the examiners would be actual specialists on the instruments in question.

Anyway, all the best for your retake .

Dear all,

I indeed got a chance for a free retake and thanks so much for your support and suggestions.

I think if I have to specifically remind the examiner(s) what it's like to play the recorder, he/she is not at all qualified to judge me at a professional level (or at any level). For example, if an examiner has to be reminded that it's impossible to do a crescendo on a single note on the piano, he/she would look really incompetent. I would rather spend my 1000 words on facts based on scholarly research, rather than pointing out the obvious to some fools

I'm glad it wasn't just me!

Presumably that means that a flute specialist, for example, could be asked to examine (as a specilist) oboe, clarinet, bassoon, recorder, (and I'm not sure if I've missed any but apologies if I have) and be expected to offer expert opinions...

Hmm

Hope your retake goes well, WKL!

where are these recordings?!!

Speaking of recordings, Chopin, I've heard your piano ones on the members recordings site and would love to hear you play the recorder. How about putting something up?

Liz

you mind reader im actually going to try get some recordings of flute and recorder done sometime soon, but i finish school Friday so i may do it in November