Hi - nice forum

Wonder if anyone can help... I'm want an LRSM! but I see that the DipABRSM is a prerequisite to it, but looking in the list of substitutes, the LTCL would also be accepted -
Are these two exams (LTCL & DipAbrsm) equivilent or is the LTCL much harder, just the Associated Board is being tight about taking other qualifications???
It'd be great to hear opinions of people who've taken, or are planning to take, either...
I think i'd prefer LTCL LRSM on my notepaper... think DipABRSM looks a bit messy
Thnx
James

LTCL will be much harder - ATCL is the one that compares to dipABRSM

Liz

IMHO Dip is harder than ATCL because of the
[a] quick study
[b] viva

These are elements that you don't have to worry about for ATCL but need to consider carefully for Dip.

You could say therefore by extension that LRSM is harder than LTCL for the same reasons. Certainly the quick study (a grade 7-standard piece) and the increased knowledge required in the viva are non-trivial elements of LRSM.

Depending on your instrument (?organ) you may find the repertoire lists quite similar, but that's not to say of course that the same standard of performance would yield the same mark in LRSM vs. LTCL.

I think therefore ABRSM are correct in looking for LTCL as an acceptable pre-requisite for taking LRSM.

Can I ask what instrument you were concentrating on and what level you've achieved so far? Thanks!

Hey, thanks for this info.
Yeah, i guess the LRSM is harder than the LTCL, but I'm still not convinced it would be so much so as to make the ATCL no supstitute for the DipABRSM - mind you, I'm not a music examiner, i guess i should question the board
I do play the organ (obv) but I think I would take the LRSM /Dip/LTCL in the piano - I'm grade 8 in each, hopefully post that standard, but really i think the ARCO and FRCO are the organ qualifications

according to trinitys website their atcl and ltcl are on the national qualifications framework at level 4 but i dont know what dipABRSM LRSM and FRSM are (does anyone else think that the dipABRSM should have been the ARSM to stop it looking messy as pulsatororgani said)

I totally agree!! When I eventually get my DipABRSM, I don't know if i'd add it to my name or not, it looks a bit silly really, sounds even worse! I always feel rather odd when I tell people I'm working on my "Dip-A-B-R-S-M"...

lol

I've always pronounced that as one word, like abrasum, thou' in music shops, somtimes they know what you mean, somtimes they give u a funny look and u have to explain
I definately agree with contick87546, they schould call it the associateship, ARSM
I'd add a poll if i knew how :$

Historically, LRSM was always available.

If you graduated from one of the Royal Schools, you got GRSM (equivalent of BMus).

If you passed a certain level of performance competency at the RCM you also got ARCM (at the RAM it was LRAM) ... up until the point that these new dips came into being in 2000, you could also take the ARCM externally.. it wasn't easy and I would pitch it at least at LRSM level..

I guess therefore they tried to avoid ARSM because it would have been a confuzzlement of GRSM/ARCM.. I may be wrong here.

But hey, at least it isn't CertABRSM

As for the ARCO/FRCO yes I agree they are the organ qualification, but only from a certain point of view if you think that writing a formal fugue in an examination is a mark of a good organist....

You know, I think I do. At lease I think that the inability could possibly be the mark of a bad organist

edit:!
Sorry, just realized how harsh that sounds /is
I mean I quite like that it's a requirement, because knowledge of musical forms must help in communicating them - sure, if you learn a fuge you learn decent articulation etc but learning and showing you understand the principals () also helps performing outside examinations.

I'm a bad organist then!

edit: In response to your edit above, the ARCO has fugue analysis (i.e. prewritten fugue, mark up the salient structural elements and "fill in" a few bars left blank) so this would address the point you make.. as for actually writing a fugue from scratch.. all I can say is

lol, sorry - i was hoping i could edit that one before anyone read it
I didn't actually mean difficulty realizing a fugue in an exam makes you a bad organist

no worries! (see my edit above)...

lol
Just lookt it up actually, and, yes it's bad, but not terrible
You're given a subject and you have to write an exposition, followed by an episode

I don't mean I'd find this at all easy now, but if i ever get far enought to take the FRCO, I should have had the time to figure it out by then

I'm at that point now and it's one of the reasons I think FRCO will be my last ever diploma examination, if I'm lucky enough to complete LLCM - FRSM - FTCL - FLCM in the meantime

hmm, i don;t think i'd have the patience to do them all, FRSM FRCO would do me

Whilst lots of letters are attractive, I find the opportunity to learn new repertoire is the main motivator.. There's little point in learning - say - Hindemith Sonata No. 1 for the congregation's benefit !! Plus, if you're cute you can share some pieces between dips so the amount of prep is somewhat mitigated...

I think the examiners are actually just interested in the music
I know what you mean Thou' you learn repetoire also to experiance it, and the same goes for the congregaton - the voluntary really isnt for them to enjoy

I have an ATCL to my name, and am working on an LTCL. I stopped for half a year due to a wrist injury though... so are you going to take the LRSM right after the LTCL? It sounds like a good idea. I think the DipAB is a pain.

Hi All, i have just gotten my Grade 8 Piano Practical but has only a Grade 6 Theory. Can i know what can i get next if i like to further my piano learning? Which is first ? DipABRSM or LTCL or LRSM?

Thanks so much.

First of all you have to decide whether to do teaching or performance, or both. You can do exams in teaching which are based on questions on your teaching strategy and playing examples of pieces you might want to teach; or you can do exams in performance.

The ABRSM's diplomas are in order dipABRSM, LRSM, FRSM. The LTCL is a diploma by another exam board., Trinity; they do ATCL, LTCL and FTCL. The Trinity diplomas have 'reciatal' variants (higher up this is all that one can do) which means that the exam is a performance of pieces and some short programme notes. The AB diplomas have in addition to this a quick study of grade 6/7/8 exam piece standard depending on which level of diploma you do (like sightreading but you're given 5 minutes to study the piece in the exam and the standard of playing expected is much higher) and a viva voce where you're asked questions about your programme notes, interpretation, composers of pieces in your programme and the pieces you played.

I'm not sure if Trinity do teaching diplomas but the AB do; they invlove a viva voce about teaching techniques and playing some pieces of the required standard (grade 6 for dipABRSM). The quick study of the same standard for the performance diploma is also required. DipABRSM Teaching requires grade 8 in the instrument you want to teach and grade 6 theory, but I think you have both of these.

When deciding which diploma to start at your choices are narrowed down for you slightly by the AB's regulations. To take dipABRSM one must have grade 8 from one of the major boards (or ATCL); to take LRSM one must have dipABRSM (or LTCL); to take FRSM one must have LRSM (of FTCL); ATCL and LTCL have no prerequisites; FTCL requires either LTCL or LRSM. There are other listed substitutions for the AB's qualifications; if you have other qualifications that you want to check have a look at the syllabus.

If you want further information on ABRSM diplomas, have a look at the diplomas section of their website.

So if you want to start somewhere it's DipABRSM for the ABRSM route or ATCL for the Trinity route, although some people choose to do ATCL then DipABRSM, I've not heard of anyone doing it the other way around but some people may do it that way.

Hey....really thanks so much. It was really very enlightening. I have always wanted to do a Teaching Dip. Will definitely to go and find out more on both Trinity and ABRSM syllabus. From the sound of it, does it mean i must do ATCL and LTCL to be equivalent to DipABRSM?

Will it be much better if I further it now, or should i start teaching the beginners first to have an exposure first?

Thanks

Hi Newbie Teacher

To clear up a few misconceptions.

1. Trinity does diplomas in teaching as well as performance and directing.

2. ATCL is the same level as DipABRSM, that is, the equivalent standard to the end of the first year of a university course.

3. LTCL is the same level as LRSM, that is, the equivalent standard to the end of the third year of a university course.

4. Both of 2&3 apply whether you are doing teaching, performing or directing.

So why does the ABRSM insist on LTCL rather than ATCL as the prerequisite for entering LRSM?

It's not unusual in professional qualifications for one awarding body to insist on a higher qualification prerequisite from another awarding body than from their own.

For example, in accountancy, people who have taken ICAEW (Chartered) exams who wish to gain a CIMA (Chartered Management) qualification can only get exemption from the intermediate CIMA exams if they have passed all the ICAEW exams. And people who have taken CIMA exams can only get exemption from the intermediate ICAEW stage if they've passed all the CIMA exams. And this is despite the fact that CIMA and ICAEW qualifications are the same level and cover predominantly the same ground.

But back to music:

Trinity's view is that they are committed to widening access to their exams, so they don't ask for any prerequisites at all. But they still expect high standards to pass the exams - they aren't a freebie. You may decide that your first ever exam on an instrument will be the LTCL, but you won't pass unless you're at the end-of-a-degree standard.

Cheers

Katyjay

No, in terms of pre-requisits for the exams you need LTCL if you want to do LRSM but LTCL requires a higher level of playing than dipABRSM (and ATCL) I think what the AB are saying is not that it's the same standard as dipABRSM; just that they don't consider it enough to be taken as a substitution for LRSM to move on to FRSM, probably because they want people to have done the viva and quick study at L level before going on to the FRSM. They are willing to waive the requirement for having done the viva though if one has demonstrated F level playing (i.e. done FTCL). I'm not sure if it's the AB being awkward, if they were doing this then Trinity would probably return their awkwardness by asking for FRSM, rather than LRSM as a prerequisite for FTCL, of course I've never done either so can't really comment.


If you want to do a teaching diploma (I don't know anything about Trinity's but I presume they're similar to the AB's I don't know anyone who has done them) then you will need to get experience of teaching (up to grade 6) before entering the exam. The exam is a test of how well you can teach, it's an exam only so you need some experience of teaching to be able to answer the questions about it. The best person to talk to about teaching diplomas is Margaret as she has done all three of the AB's. Something worth looking in to if you're interested in learning more about teaching is the CTABRSM course which does 'teach' you to teach, it's a course with an assessment at the end. Many people reccommend this as an excellent course; but it is quite expensive.

Good luck .

Hi Newbie Teacher,

Whilst there is some recognition in the new AB teaching diploma syllabus that some people may wish to take the exam without having very much teaching experience, it is useful to at least have thought through how you would approach teaching the Grade 6 repertoire you are asked to demonstrate in the DipABRSM. I know someone who passed very well without having taught past Grade 3.

The CT ABRSM requires you to have been teaching a year, and to be teaching at least 5 students, so it is an in-service qualification rather than a pre-teaching one.

With regard to the Trinity vs AB diploma comparison, I'm with Katyjay on this one. ATCL and DipABRSM are equivalent qualifications, but have a different emphasis. To my mind there would be very little point in taking both the LTCL and the LRSM. If an LRSM is what you're after, take the DipABRSM. Otherwise the Trinity exams offer fewer hoops to jump through, in that you can go straight in at Licentiate level if that's what you're after.

There is also an exam with Trinity called Performer's Certificate. Does anyone know whether this is an in-between stage from Grade 8 to the ATCL?

Yes, the Advanced Performers' Certificate is indeed a step beyond Grade 8 before you reach ATCL.

Cheers

Katyjay

I had wondered about this because quite a lot of the pieces are also pieces that are in the diplomas (AB and Trinity diplomas). I knew the gap between G8 and diplomas was big and thought this might be a good way to prepare some of a diploma programme but in bitesize time/motivation periods - if you see what I mean! (sorry if i haven't explained this very well)

One thing to remember, Ursie, is that with Trinity you can't use a work at ATCL or higher that you've used in a lower grade or performance certificate. And if you choose to go for the own-choice repertoire for any Trinity diploma, you can't include any work that's on a lower Diploma, Certificate or Grade exam.

Cheers

Katyjay

Excuse me! Four more letters, thank you!!!

Thank you Katyjay. I thought I would do the Performer's Certificate and then the Dipabrsm, not because I want to collect initials with just one set of pieces but because I feel I need something between G8 and the Dip to work towards. I know it will probably take me 2 years to get to Dip standard (assuming I don't have anymore hitchs or demands made to my spare time) and it just seems such a long time and it seems to sort of stretch out in front of me and it doesn't feel very encouraging. Not all the pieces for the Performer's Certificate would be usable for the Dip, I would need to choose a couple of different ones for the Dip. Noone else seems to have suggested this way forward on the forums so maybe it's not a very good idea....

I can't see that it would be a problem, Ursie. It's all widening your experience of your instrument's repertoire after all. And it will be a different set of skills too, which could be to your benefit. The Advanced Performer's Certificate, like the Trinity Recital diplomas, looks more at the stagecraft and presentation elements of music making rather than the technical exercises in (say) the DipAB.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Cheers

Katyjay

Hey really thanks alot for ALL your advices!!!!!

Besides getting some real life teaching experiences, is there a need for me to finish my Grade 8 Theory since i am only G6 now? Would it benefit me for the ATCL?


Thanks