I've just found a piano teacher out in Shanghai (where i'll be till christmas) and showed her the pieces i have been learning (Brahms' second rhapsody and Schumann's Intermezzo. She has now set me Chopin's first Op.10 etude (the r.h. arpeggio study in c) since it's a piece she knows well. I started it a couple of days ago, and can play the first couple of pages to about 1/4 speed so far (perhaps a little quicker). I've been trying to play it very slowly and with minimal movements in the right hand in the hope that it will speed up by itself. But i have serious doubts about whether this approach will ever bring it up to crotchet=176! Anyone else studied this piece? Should i just be patient or are there any tips for getting it accurate and up to speed? How long did it take to get it there?

I've just started working on Op. 10 No. 12 - same idea, but the arpeggios are in the left hand and melody in the right.

I'm currently using pretty much every practice technique I know to get the arpeggios well under my fingers. Starting at less than half of full speed:

- swinging the semiquavers,
- playing each semiquaver group as a semiquaver triplet then a quaver,
- playing each semiquaver group as a quaver then a semiquaver triplet,
- playing the sections backwards
- playing each group of 4 semiquavers as 4 demisemiquavers, plus the next semiquaver to make sure it fits within the metronome
- starting the groups of semiquavers on off-beats to cover all joins
- extending this to 8 semiquavers as 8 demisemiquavers, plus the next semiquaver on the beat

My speed and fluency have definitely improved doing this - at first I couldn't see how it was physically possible to play the piece at full speed; I can just about hit 75 - 80% of full-speed now on the odd section I've practised well, with a favourable wind etc . I think, with patience, I should be able to get there eventually.

Good luck .

cant remember who said it but Op.10 No.1 is one of the worst to start playing

This piece is very demanding. Slow practise is good for accuracy, but I do it both slow and fast for accuracy and stamina. You have to first get the notes right before speeding up. The right hand should not be "floating" over the keys but depressing them. Took me about 1 to 2 months to get it right. Good luck.

I dunno if you know this but I think this etude is supposed to be like a rewrite of Bachs etude no. 1 from the well tempered klavier. A very clever one I think. Its designed to develop and stretch the right hand, specifically between fingers 2, 3 and 4. The fingering is usually either 1 2 4 5 1 2 4 or 1 2 3 5 1 2 3. Break it into sections. Work at, say, bars 1 to 16 first. Practice it a bit slowly first before gradually speeding it up. Im not sure how to describe this, and someone else might do a better job than me, but, say, for bar 1 and 2, I kind of move my wrist up to the right ascending, down to the left for descending arrpeggios. Kind of like Im rolling the arpeggios but still fingering them properly.

Sorry if this makes no sense, but I hope it helps some bit anyway......

YetAnotherPianist, I've just spoken to a pianist friend of mine and he suggested learning no.12 as well as this, so my left hand doesn't get forgotten about. I did a bit more work on No.1 today, and it still seems impossible, but then every difficult piece seems impossible until you've broken the back of it, doesn't it? Hopefully by the time i get back to england (just under 3 months) i can bring back two complete etudes with me. I just hope i still have two functional hands as well...

If you get Op. 10. No 1 and Op. 10. No 12 cracked, have a look at Op. 25 No. 12 - play both at the same time .

or Op.25 No.1

The C minor isn't really one of my favourites, so it would seem like a rather lot of effort for not much reward. To be honest, i think after these 2 etudes i'll want something a little less notey! I'll let you know how i get on with them both.

How can it not be a favourite????!!! The chord progressions are wonderful!

But, granted, there are a lot of notes!!!!!

I do like it, i just don't love it enough to devote hours and hours of practise to it. It seems to me to be the evil twin of Op.10 No.1. Maybe i'll learn it when i'm in a darker frame of mind. If i were to learn any of the other etudes, i would pick the rolled chords study (the harp?) or the nouvelle etudes.

:waits for steve hopwood to impart his words of wisdom...:

Thank you kindly. As it happens, I do have something to offer here.

First, let me say that this is one of the hardest of the Etudes. I have never actually mastered it, although I have it so well in my memory that I can relearn the notes in a matter of hours. This is one of the last of the Etudes I would recommend as a 'first' because of the impossiblity of mastering it; I do not need to describe the problems to you, Schubertiad.

At first glance, it appears logical to try to cover as many notes as possible and play with as little movement as possible.

Back in the early 1990's, I spent a few months on the performance masters course at Huddersfield University. Work pressure prevented me continuing on the course for more than a short time, but I did enjoy some teaching from Prabhu Singh, a magnificent piano teacher.

Prab pointed out that trying to play this study with minimal movement actually leads to hand, wrist and eventually every where else tension. He demonstrated how to play this:

Ascending: lead with the wrist. The position of the wrist will change with each new group of semiquavers, because it will need to return to a position that allows the thumb to play. It will never return to a position where the fingers are leading.

Descending: again, the wrist leads. This time, though, it describes a counter-clockwise circular action. The notes in bar 2 are (playing from memory here - I will check in the morning) E C G C. The wrist rises slightly towards the C with finger 4, slightly more towards G with finger 2, falls towards C with the thumb, then returns to the starting position for the start of the next group of semis.

You might identify a recurring theme in my postings about technical matters in these forums - the use of movement to relax tension and avoid physical exhaustion. Most of this stemmed directly from Prab's thought-provoking teaching; techniques I describe are those I use every day.

Sadly, Prab dies of cancer within two years of my meeting him. He was an inspirational teacher and I like to think that I am carrying his torch whenever I am able to offer advice that stems directly from his work.

Hope this helps

Steve

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by clockwise and anticlockwise. If the wrist leads on the descending scale, then isn't the hand moving CLOCKWISE? I'm sure i've misunderstood, so any clarification would be much appreciated. I thrashed around in the practise rooms for an hour or two today, and can now play the first half of it to half speed. Now there's just the simple matter of learning the rest and playing it all twice as fast and perfectly evenly...

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my reach is pretty large (an 11th) whereas i seem to remember you saying that your stretch isn't so big. Will this have any bearing on how i should play? for instance, the 1245 stretch in bar one lies very comfortably under my hands, and the only stretches which i have so far found to be outside my comfort zone are the CFCF (1245) stretch (bar 11 i think) and of course the huge B to A stretch (thumb and first finger) which appears at the bottom of page 2 on my edition (i don't know the bar number off hand). Given that most of the stretches don't seem to torturous for me, should i carry on as i have done, or will there still be tension?. Since i haven't played up to speed and have been very deliberately placing every note, i have so far been playing very rigidly, but don't know whether this will still be the case at a faster tempo.

These things are horribly difficult to describe. Taking the first descending group of semis (E C G C): the wrist starts level (or low if that is your preference); it rises on the C and G, then falls again to the C in preparation for the next group (edit on reading after posting: the movement is quite small).


So that is the first 10 minutes of tomorrow's practise taken care of. What will you do for the rest of the time?


It must be easier to play this piece if your hands are bigger; if you can cover all 4 notes in each group before playing them, you are going to hit the correct ones more easily.

It might be the case that you can develop such fluid fingers that your wrist, forearm, upper arm and shoulders remain relaxed - the ideal situation. If you find your wrist tiring, that is because it is tensing.

In this case, find little movements that will release the tension. These might be on every beat, as I have to, or every bar\2 bars\4 bars. Perhaps something as simple as a lower wrist ascending and a higher wrist descending might do the trick.

Experiment. If what you try looks and feels natural then you will not do any harm. At the speed this study is supposed to travel, tension releasing movements will be quite small.

Hope this helps

Steve

I have small-ish hands with fairly short fingers so although I've had a go at this study I know I'll never be able to play it brilliantly - some of the others seem to lie better under my fingers.

Don't overlook Chopin's Préludes Op.28 as alternatives (or supplements) to the Studies. They are generally shorter and slightly less taxing, for example No.3 in G major would be an alternative to Op.10 No.12 as a LH study. Musically, they are arguably at an even higher level of invention.

Also, don't overlook Scriabin's Op. 11 Préludes as a beautiful but woefully underplayed alternative to Chopin's. I played a couple of them for my Dip. and they're great .

Slightly less taxing is understating it by several orders of magnitude.

Chopin knew how to push pianists to their absolute limit and did so in his studies. His Preludes are technically difficult because that is the nature of the music he composed. Having said that, they do develop technique effectively, but as a preparation to the studies, not an alternative.

Steve

I've played through a few of Scriabin's Op.11. They appear to fall into two fairly distinct categories: the straightforward and the hands-flying-everywhere-presto-far-too-much-effort pieces. My favourite of the preludes are generally the easier ones, particularly no.1 and no.10.

Regarding the Chopin C major etude, i'll keep plugging away and hopefully can send a recording when it gets a little better. Then i can get some much more tangible advice since people will have heard the mess for themselves.