Hi all, I am new to the board but would briefly like to introduce myself, I am a 40 something UK member, carver/sculptor/teacher/writer by trade and played the double bass many years ago. For a long time now I have wanted to learn the Violin and now my boys are near to leaving school I find myself with more time to follow this ambition.

I found this forum last night whilst trawling through various reviews of different Violin manufacturers and was pleasantly surprised to read so many helpful polite threads, in fact I had a job to go to bed I was so engrossed.

Ok, so far I have talked to quite a few 'Strings specialists' who have all seemed to contradict one another - hence my confusion - I have had been told that it is a waste of money buying anything over £100.00 as a beginner will not be able to achieve any tonal improvement for some time so why bother, "just buy a £69.00 cheapy and upgrade the strings". I have then been told the opposite that I should spend around £200.00 and buy a Zeller as the build quality and materials are notably of higher quality. Another said that the German make 'Franz Sandner' was very good but a much more mellow sound, this was then contradicted by another 'expert' who said that this German make was very poor (sorry if this is offending anyone, I am just relaying the advice given). After quite a few calls I actually found 2 separate specialists that actually agreed, they both suggested that the Stentor Conservatoire was a good instrument and the outfit was worth the investment. I did more research from this lead and found quite a few people that also agreed...Eureka moment...Not for long.

My next step was to read as many reviews as possible and thats when I bumped into your very informative domain and the first paragraph I read was 'Frumpybabes' saying that she had recently sold her sons Stentor Conservatoire due to its tone being too bright and had bought a Gliga Gem 2. Well at first this burst my bubble as I thought that I had found the right Violin to invest in but I read on and on about the Gligas, visited the Elite website and had a good read about them and must admit they do seem to have a very good reputation with you all here.

Sorry to go on in length about this but I do not wish to waste my money and would like to get my purchase right first time. My budget is around £500 and I would like a good quality instrument that is comfortable to learn with and obviously of good quality build and sound.

If you have time to spare please reply with your experiences, knowledge and advice, I would be so very greatful...Andy

With the disclaimer that I have not tried a gliga violin, my gliga viola which was less than £500 is a really beautiful and lovely to play instrument that I would highly recommend. I would think for £500 you could buy a really lovely gliga violin and a very good bow.

There are soundfiles on the 'net somewhere, have you found them? If I remember the URL...

Happy to oblige Gliga soundfiles and others

Disclaimer 1: Alas, it is not me playing

Disclaimer 2: a lot will depend on your hardware - some people can tell no difference between all the violins on this page!

No doubt you could guess my recommendation so i won't spell it out

To be fair, the biggest factor in tone production is the player - you will be the limiting factor for a long time. But then since you've played double bass before I am sure you realise that.

Liz

There ya go (as if by magic!! )

Hi, Sculptor!

if you've been trawling round this board I doubt mine or Sarah Flute's recommendations will come as a complete surprise to you!

I would say get a Gliga, beyond doubt. My understanding is that the Genials are good student instruments but not massively better than the Zeller's/ Pollers/ Stentor Conservatoire level, but that the Gems level instruments leave all those instruments, including the Genial, standing on the horizon. (I may do the Genial a disservice as I have only had a 1/32 Genial).

I would think the best bet would be a Gems or a Gama, as you can afford both. It's hard for me to be sure about this, as I have never played a Gama. I have however been able to compare a 15' Gems viola against a 15' maestro viola, and a maestro extra violin against a 3/4 tiger stripe gems violin! My daughter also has a Gems 1/4 cello.

My instinct from the above limited knowledge is that you should get a Gems, even though the Gama is a finer instrument again. That is because in my view the step up from a Genial/Zeller/Poller/Stentor to a Gems is one which can be appreciated every bit as much by a beginner as by a more experienced violinist. The Gems instruments look and feel so beautifully crafted - the sound is richer and warmer and more lovely whoever is playing on them.

I suspect the step up to Gama from Gems is in terms of silky smoothness and power particularly in the higher positions, rather than the underlying loveliness of the tone in first position, and the step up to Maestro mainly in terms of power. To me the path "Genial - Gems - Gama - Maestro" is perhaps a bit like "Melanie Sykes - Mariella Frostrup - Richard Burton - Enrico Caruso." My wife who is learning viola actually prefers playing on the Gems viola to the Maestro viola - she doesn't want the volume of response that you get from the Maestro.

I hope these ramblings help. I would only act on them if they seem to confirm what you were thinking anyway, since we all have different perspectives on these things.

Good luck whatever you decide to get!

My advice is to buy the best you can afford. Hopefully then when you want to upgrade (which you will!) it will still be worth at least the money you paid for it.

My first violin I really regret buying. It was a rental, and after so many months renting you could buy for a small charge. It seemed like a good idea at the time having spent so much towards the cost renting it, but to be honest once I had decided I was going to do this thing (learn the violin that is) I should have sent it back, saved any further rental costs, and bought something at least half way decent. I still have it (do you want it???) It is gathering dust in the back of the cupboard and is practically worthless. I think in total (with the rental costs) it was £75 which included the case and the bow. I was robbed!

*thinks maybe I should stick a "facit Stradivari 1727" label in it, put it in the attic for a bit and then sell it on Ebay*

I don't have a Gliga but I have heard nothing but good reports, (and I have had a go on Sarah's viola....mmmmmmm).

And hope to see you at one of our adult learners concerts in the near future

EDIT: thought of something else. It is hard enough for a learner to get any decent sound out of a violin at first, why make it MORE difficult by getting a violin that even Maxim Vengerov would struggle to get a decent sound out of (Ok well perhaps even HE could make my rental instrument sing, maybe I'll put that challenge to him one day!). The better the quality of instument, the better tone you are going to have from the start and the less hard work it will be.

Hi Andy

Sorry to pop your bubble. But yes the Stentor Conservatoire was too bright and after 6 months trying to make a good tone and let the violin mature, the dominant strings settle etc. We decided it was a lost cause. I sold it and got a Gem 2 for my son, he took to it straight away and got a high distinction in his grade 4 on it. He was only 9 at the time and he thought it was alot easier to play. The shift were much easier to do and cos it was more comfortable to play he practiced for longer periods of time.

Now I am saving up for a cello for my other son as I firmly believe that Gliga is the way to go for us. I have recommended Gliga to the string teachers I do know to take up the Elida challenge.

For £500 I am sure you could pick up an excellent Gem/Gama outfit from Elidatrading.

Well thank you all very much for your very quick response to my Violin purchasing dilemma. The drum beating is certainly sounding the Gliga path.

It is a great help to hear the opinions from those of you who have had experience buying and playing as well as companies that sell instruments, it gives me far more information to make a informed purchase with this balanced advice.

I am off now to have a listen to the sound files on the Elida site but in the mean time if anyone has anything further to add - post away!

Many thanks...Andy

Jane, you're learning fast



If you do persuade him, could you get him to record it for posterity? How much do you think we'd have to pay him to record himself playing a Gliga?

Liz

Er, don't want to be negative, but I have heard it said that adults do find the violin quite a challenge. Bigger fingers, less fine motor control, that sort of thing. As an (ex-) bass player, you obviously know the other members of the string family. Perhaps viola or cello might be worth considering? Have you spoken to some string teachers about your options?

Ah, Storini, but that was before you read this

Yep. I can confimr that even a 1/32 gama dooesn't sound very wonderful. Mind you, they LOOK absolutely gorgeous - well worth putting in a glass case!


Would anyone like to translate please?

Liz

Pour moi, la route "Genial, Gems, Gama, Maestro", c'est peut-etre un petit comme
"Melanie Sykes - Mariella Frostrup - Richard Burton - Enrico Caruso".








(the latter 3 all have a delightfully rich gravelly voice, albeit in increasing degrees of power. Melanie Sykes has a perfectly nice clear voice, but it is not particularly rich and gravelly.)

I had read that thread, and interesting it is. However, sadly, there is a world of difference between starting the violin at age 15 and at age 45. I am a multiple late starter myself, so certainly do encourage people to learn later on in life. However, you do have to be realistic. If we knew a bit more about Andy's ambitions, that might help: are we planning a bit of celtic fiddling or aiming for the Mendelssohn?

fair point, Storini! I did try to put up a link also to Roger Dowling, who has more modestly achieved a position of leader of the second violins in the Alderley Edge Orchestra, having taken up violin as a mature adult prompted by one of his children. Unfortunately his write up seems to have been written out of the updated aeorchestra website, and the address for the cache where it now is seems too long to fit into a hyperlink on here.

I suppose it is also worth Andy bearing in mind that of all string players, Double Bass players are most in demand in orchestras, followed by viola players, cello players and then violinists, so his best prospects for getting into an orchestra might not be with violin. However there are plenty of places for violinists too, and if the violin is the one you want to play, surely that must weigh pretty heavily in what you choose to learn!

It's an interesting view that the violin should be avoided in favour of perhaps cello or viola because of difficulty levels - I would have thought of the three the violin would be the easiest to learn.

I'd love to hear him have a go on your cheapie rental instrument - that would be fascinating wouldn't it?

Liz: lol! A lot, I would imagine

If I do persuade him it will certainly be recorded for posterity....my would that be something

I think if the opportunity ever arises I will ask him to play my best violin though so I can then rename it the ex-Vengerov!!!

Well yes good point.

But then I started at 44, and I have played the Mendelssohn AND the Brahms in performance, and will be playing the Tchaik in December........



......well the second violin part on the back desk of an amateur orchestra But Hey, its wonderful to be able to do that!

good for you Janexxx!

Ok, just to confirm a few more details about myself, in answer to Storini's good points, I do actually have very small hands (steady) which unfortunately were a disadvantage to my Double Bass playing but positively a massive big advantage to my career of carving and sculpture (very gentle touch for intricate detail etc), you can if you wish see my gallery by adding a 3d before my forum name and a dot com after it and that is not in any way a plug for my website just a point of fact if you want to see what I do.

If you have seen the work that I produce it will hopefully be obvious that I very much enjoy challenges and problem solving and this being part of my character is one good reason for my wanting to learn an instrument at my tender age and I have all of my life enjoyed the Violin more than any other.

My musical tastes are many but classicaly I simply love Bach and Vivaldi plus etc etc. I have no great delusions of grandeur though about where I think that my learning will take me, I just need something to learn that I have a passion for and will challenge me, that I can practice whenever I choose and if I progress to a good level in time to come then yes I am sure that I would love to be involved in an orchestra but from where I am stood at the moment that is but a dream (a nice one though)

Thanks agin to all for your input...Great

But certainly not an impossible one. Mine was to play chamber music which I also do now (though only for our own pleasure!).

I am sure from what you say you will certainly be successful.....keep us up to date with progress won't you.

I think you have the vital things for learning an instrument... enjoy

very nice website, sculptor!

I bet you could make your own violin!

... and should Andy be tempted to try, here's where to start:
http://makeviolins.webcraftcam.com/
http://www.bvma.org.uk/

the only thing is by the time he's finished making his violin he might not be a 45 year old spring chicken any more! And if he decides to make a viola - a cello or even a double bass those lessons are looking further and further away!

Thanks for your kind words and for the links, I am actually very interested in making one later on so it will be great gathering information and experience towards this.

Be a laugh won't it

I agree about Gligas - I heard about them here and got an adult pupil of mine who was upgrading from a Stentor to try them. Two duly arrived and she fell madly in love with one of them and bought it - I think it's a Gem 2, about £300. Apart from anything else, it looks divine. She's had it about 6 months now and the sound has improved and for the price it was excellent from the start. We compared it with 2 others she'd borrowed from the local shop, similar price range and there was no comparison.

-(Jane)

Well hang on a minute! The best violinists can make even the cheapest bits of firewood sound fabulous...

Ever hear the story about Kato Havas the great violin teacher, who on hearing a young gypsy boy in Hungary play like a dream borrowed his violin to show to a local dealer - she thought it might be worth thousands? Basically, it wasn't. In fact it was just a piece of factory-made cheap junk.

Anyway, it's all in the bowing - so invest in a good bow. I'd say £300 on a Gliga and then spend another £100 on a nice bow. I know you're only supposed to spend 20% of the violin's value on the bow, but in the case of the Gliga ... you see what I mean. In other words, don't waste a nice violin on a useless bow! Oh and then make sure you're taught how to hold the bow really well and get a beautiful sound with it - in other words, get yourself the best teacher you can find, because you'll need a somewhat different technique for violin after double bass. I've just taken on a new pupil who was quite a good cellist - she'd been trying to teach herself and had a very strange left and right hand - basically a cello hold. It didn't really work for violin, but she's turning it around now.

Anyway good luck.

Violinia

Thanks for the advice Violinia, it really helps to hear of other peoples experience which gives me more confidence buying over the internet or phone. The only one big negative for me as a person who has been working with wood all my life is the fact that I can not go and see a selection of them to see and hear the individual differences and perhaps bond with one or two in particular to choose from. I guess, surely, everyone must feel that though.

Tough decision. Any more experiences or advice always welcome.

Thanks again...Andy

With Elida Trading You can order several, pick the one you want and send the rest back. Or if you live near them - Yorkshire - you could go there. No way would I recommend ever buying a violin without trying it out first - ever!

You can also chat to her (Liz) on the phone - she's very friendly and informative - the number's on the website which is here: www.elidatrading.co.uk

Violinia

Thanks again for the advice Violinia, I have spoken to Liz and she is sending me 3 Violins on approval along with a selection of bows. Couldn't be better

A big THANK YOU to Liz as well for her excellent service and patience with a greeny like myself...Highly recommended

Ooooh, enjoy!

Liz is very good with the clueless, even those who shouldn't be that clueless (AKA me!)

Looking forward to hearing how you get on with the violins

Thanks Sarah, very excited, can't wait

Oh, excellent, Sculptor - I'm really glad you're going for this. I don't think you'll be disappointed!

Violinia

Actually, looking at your work on your website, I'd say you might potentially be more of a bow-maker than an instrument maker. The two skills are quite different: I've seen comparisons of making instruments to making furniture, whereas making bows is more like making sculpture.

In fact, many of the great bow-makers came originally from non-woodwork trades, like jewellery and so on. The book Bows and Bowmakers by William C Retford is a mine of information on these matters; he was head of the workshop at W.E. Hill and Sons, and some of the ex-W.E.Hill craftsmen are still working today, e.g. Brian Alvey who made my lovely cello bow.

Hi friends, just a little update for you...

My 3 Violins arrived last Saturday - Gama2, Gama1 with a 1 piece back in birds eye maple and a Gama1 Superior which had a 2 piece back. All 3 violins were beautiful, they were well constructed with fine wood and gorgeous characteristic markings and very close grained tops with such beautiful oiled finishes. They more than surpassed my expectations.

Within an hour or so of listening to their individual tones I knew exactly which one I prefered, the Gama1 Superior, it has such a lovely deep, warm tone and sounds just ahhhhh fantastic but from Saturday to Tuesday I continued with an open mind (well a bit biased actually). On Tuesday I went to the 'Bristol Violin Shop' and took all 3 violins with me and two of the guys there played them all for me and gave me their opinion of them which was "very nice, good tones, lovely wood" etc etc in fact they were very interested in where they came from, how much they were and took all of the details from me about ElidaTrading. They also said that they had seen the Gligas at a Frankfurt exhibition. Lets hope that Liz and David get some business from them too. Anyway they too interestingly prefered the one that I chose followed by the Birds eye Gama1 and then the Gama2.

So there it is, my choice is made and now I will do my best to do it justice, the only really frustrating news is that my lessons do not start until January, I have downloaded various teach yourself books with mp3 music files etc but my main worry is picking up bad habbits before I get correct tuition. Any opinions on this one would be most welcome as well as any suggestions of fundamentals that I can learn.

Thank you all again for your help, I am truly grateful and so very pleased to say the least.

@Storini, thank you also for the information about bow makers, that is very interesting indeed and I will have a quick peep on Amazon for the book by William C Retford, it sounds as though that may well have a good place on my book shelf for that little gem...

Andy

Great news Andy

roll on January!

unless of course you can persuade your teacher to give you just one small tiny lesson before Christmas

ah - go on! eet is just a tiny tastair of a lesson - eet is only a waffer thin lesson after all .....

Talking of bookshelves, the two most essential books on the violin are, IMHO, these:
1) Antonio Stradivari, His Life and Work by William H. Hill, etc. => http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...7105682-6303032
2) The Cambridge Companion to the Violin, ed. Robin Stowell => http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...7105682-6303032

Happy reading...

Thanks Storini, always nice to gain some benefit from other peoples experience

I am sorry that you were apparently led to a faulty link. The address of the Alderley Edge Orchestra is www.aeorchestra.org.uk - I wonder where you saw the 'writeup' to which you refer?

I did indeed learn late in life but the experience has been very rewarding. It is important to draw a distinction between orchestral playing and soloistic playing; I am sure that you need to start young for the latter!

With regard to violins, my view is influenced by the fact that I have made a number of violins (and also a viola). I have also discussed violins with many players, including professionals. Despite all the hype, I do not believe that an ancient Cremonese violin is necessarily better than a modern instrument; indeed, I am aware of professionals who have changed from one to the other without the slightest effect on their tone. It has, however, had a positive effect on their disposable income, as insurance costs for reputable ancient violins are prohibitive these days.

I believe that the setting up of the violin in terms of sound post position, bass bar size, height of bridge etc have a far more significant effect on a violin's tone, plus of course the overall physical contours of the instrument itself. The type of varnish hardly affects the tone at all.

Needless to say, the ability of the player affects the tone most of all; I have heard one of my less successful home-made violins played by a professional and it sounded like a different instrument.

For the record, my own commercially made violin is by Geronimo Barnabetti of Paris and is about 100 years old (I also use my home made ones in rotation).

Hello, Roger! I did respond to your private message some weeks ago, but I'm not sure if my response got through to you.

I see that the same "write up" which I had previously seen is back in under "meet the players" in your orchestra's website - the link seemed to have been removed last time I looked.

I think you are a good example for adult learners - if as an adult learner you can get good enough to be a string section leader in a good amateur orchestra, that exposes the myth that "adults can't learn because that's what children do."

I seem to remember reading that Colin Touchin occasionally pops up and conducts your orchestra. He used to conduct my university orchestra - do you know what he's up to these days?