Although I don't yet have the exact date, I have about six weeks until my Grade 8 exam.
Last night I played all three of my pieces to my teacher, and she was quite uncharacteristically complimentary! She mentioned that my timing, phrasing, dynamics and rhythm were all fine.
HOWEVER....
She said my playing sounded rough, that my tone was harsh, and that when I played forte it was quite unpleasant to listen to.
I don't disagree - I know my tone needs work, and it's getting rather late in the day to do something about it, but I would like to try.
Does anyone have any tips? I don't bother asking her for technical help because she just says I'm too old (I'm 48).
The pieces I'm playing are A1, B1 and C9 (J S Bach, C P E Bach and Debussy)
Full Version: Improving Tone - Impossible Question!
Just ask her to give you some technique exercises to do. It should help. She can't just point blankly refuse because of your age. Just tell her that you are never to old to learn and you want to do some technique. It might be difficult to get out of the way you play at the moment, but surely some technical exercises would help a bit.
QUOTE(Edwardo @ Oct 19 2005, 08:24 AM)
Although I don't yet have the exact date, I have about six weeks until my Grade 8 exam.
Last night I played all three of my pieces to my teacher, and she was quite uncharacteristically complimentary! She mentioned that my timing, phrasing, dynamics and rhythm were all fine.
HOWEVER....
She said my playing sounded rough, that my tone was harsh, and that when I played forte it was quite unpleasant to listen to.
I don't disagree - I know my tone needs work, and it's getting rather late in the day to do something about it, but I would like to try.
Does anyone have any tips? I don't bother asking her for technical help because she just says I'm too old (I'm 48).
The pieces I'm playing are A1, B1 and C9 (J S Bach, C P E Bach and Debussy)
Last night I played all three of my pieces to my teacher, and she was quite uncharacteristically complimentary! She mentioned that my timing, phrasing, dynamics and rhythm were all fine.
HOWEVER....
She said my playing sounded rough, that my tone was harsh, and that when I played forte it was quite unpleasant to listen to.
I don't disagree - I know my tone needs work, and it's getting rather late in the day to do something about it, but I would like to try.
Does anyone have any tips? I don't bother asking her for technical help because she just says I'm too old (I'm 48).
The pieces I'm playing are A1, B1 and C9 (J S Bach, C P E Bach and Debussy)
Edwardo
It doesn't matter how old you are - you are about to take Grade 8 and your teacher, whilst finding much to praise, also finds a key element of performance (at any grade) to be below standard. Tone is critical in all musical performance and if your teacher feels it needs improving, I personally think it's her job (as your teacher) to sort it out, especially with an exam looming. She can hear you actually playing - we can't.
I'd now ask her to expand further on her criticisms and then ask her help/advice to sort the problem out. As teachers we are often found wanting in telling our students how to sort a problem, though we're all very good at telling them they've got it!
I know I've been guilty of this in the past and, sad to say, I guess it will happen again in the general busyness of lesson time.
So others may be able to help you here but do seek advice from the person who has the care of your training in her hands.
Best of luck with the exam.
You might consider taking a consultation or diagnostic lesson with one or more other more senior teachers or expert pianists. Certainly, string players do this, even later on in their careers, as there is so much for them to learn. We all have a GP, but see a hospital consultant when there is a particular issue. Assuming you can pay what might be a one-off higher fee, then there could be a useful payback. No one person has all the answers. You may or may not wish to disclose this to your teacher, that's up to you.
However you don't want to parrot back at them later over matters of technique "But Mr. X says it's done this way", as that will wind them up!
Good luck!
P.S. My hint on your particular issue would be first to learn how to play really softly but with a good tone (and without resorting to the una corda pedal). Playing a good pianissimo is not easy! Then you have immediately got yourself an improved dynamic range which will allow you to produce a contrasted and characterful performance. Then you can work towards taking that good quiet tone into higher dynamic levels.
However you don't want to parrot back at them later over matters of technique "But Mr. X says it's done this way", as that will wind them up!
Good luck!
P.S. My hint on your particular issue would be first to learn how to play really softly but with a good tone (and without resorting to the una corda pedal). Playing a good pianissimo is not easy! Then you have immediately got yourself an improved dynamic range which will allow you to produce a contrasted and characterful performance. Then you can work towards taking that good quiet tone into higher dynamic levels.
QUOTE(Edwardo @ Oct 19 2005, 09:24 AM)
Does anyone have any tips? I don't bother asking her for technical help because she just says I'm too old (I'm 48).
Reading this statement, I appreciate this is a little quick and judgemental, if this is really your teacher's attitude I would advise you to get a new teacher. You're paying her to teach you and she says I'm not teaching you because you're too old; then she's not doing what you pay her for so stop and pay someone else who will do it! This is a shocking attitude from a teacher; not only not teaching but saying that you're too old to learn as well
.As for playing forte more nicely try to aim more for pressing the keys solidly and firmly rather than hitting them quickly. Instantaneously once you've played the notes allow your hands to relax (so you're sinking into; rather than prodding the keys) this helps to create a nice rounded forte rather than a stab. I'm sure someone who knows more and can explain better will be here to offer further help soon
. The ideal of course is to get a teacher who will help you.
QUOTE(Edwardo @ Oct 19 2005, 03:24 AM)
She said my playing sounded rough, that my tone was harsh, and that when I played forte it was quite unpleasant to listen to.
Well, with a piano all you can control is the speed with which the hammers hit the strings, so you can't really change the tone independently of the volume. It must be something else associated with how something is played (e.g. phrasing) that gives the impression of a different tone!
Tone? On a piano? 
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*
QUOTE(shimmer @ Oct 19 2005, 12:17 PM)
Tone? On a piano?
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*
Exactly!
I thought this web page was interesting:
New York Review of Books
Differing views in the two first letters, followed by a response from Charles Rosen:
QUOTE(New York Review of Books)
A "singing" sound, nevertheless, is not given by the instrument but by the way it is exploited. In spite of what the correspondents above think, this exploitation is not mechanical and not a simple matter of technique: it requires at every moment a sense of the music. Beautiful tone production does not exist on the piano apart from the music. A single note on the violin can be beautiful because it can be controlled and made vibrant as it continues to be sustained: a single note on the piano is just a single note. It might appear agreeable in isolation if it is not too loud and if the pianist does not seem to be thumping it awkwardly.
A "singing" sound on the piano is arrived at by shaping the melody and molding the harmony and the counterpoint: when that is done right, the sound is beautiful, as the harmonies vibrate and the melody has a unified and convincing contour. (This is how one can produce a beautiful sound on a piano which may seem at first to give a sonority that is intractably ugly.) The belief that anything else contributes to a beautiful tone, like "transient" noise (whatever that is), is a delusion. You push a piano key down, and it is louder and softer, and longer and shorter. There is nothing else you can do to an individual note that makes the slightest difference to the music. It is the way the notes are combined by the pianist that makes a beautiful tone. (I would put this last sentence in capitals but it would be vulgar to do so.)
A "singing" sound on the piano is arrived at by shaping the melody and molding the harmony and the counterpoint: when that is done right, the sound is beautiful, as the harmonies vibrate and the melody has a unified and convincing contour. (This is how one can produce a beautiful sound on a piano which may seem at first to give a sonority that is intractably ugly.) The belief that anything else contributes to a beautiful tone, like "transient" noise (whatever that is), is a delusion. You push a piano key down, and it is louder and softer, and longer and shorter. There is nothing else you can do to an individual note that makes the slightest difference to the music. It is the way the notes are combined by the pianist that makes a beautiful tone. (I would put this last sentence in capitals but it would be vulgar to do so.)
QUOTE(spaceman @ Oct 19 2005, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE(shimmer @ Oct 19 2005, 12:17 PM)
Tone? On a piano?
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*ÂÂ
Excuse my ignorance but how on earth do you change your tone on a piano? On a flute it's all lip position etc. but on a piano? *looks mysified*Â
 Exactly!
I thought this web page was interesting:
New York Review of Books
Differing views in the two first letters, followed by a response from Charles Rosen:
QUOTE(New York Review of Books)
A "singing" sound, nevertheless, is not given by the instrument but by the way it is exploited. In spite of what the correspondents above think, this exploitation is not mechanical and not a simple matter of technique: it requires at every moment a sense of the music. Beautiful tone production does not exist on the piano apart from the music. A single note on the violin can be beautiful because it can be controlled and made vibrant as it continues to be sustained: a single note on the piano is just a single note. It might appear agreeable in isolation if it is not too loud and if the pianist does not seem to be thumping it awkwardly.
A "singing" sound on the piano is arrived at by shaping the melody and molding the harmony and the counterpoint: when that is done right, the sound is beautiful, as the harmonies vibrate and the melody has a unified and convincing contour. (This is how one can produce a beautiful sound on a piano which may seem at first to give a sonority that is intractably ugly.) The belief that anything else contributes to a beautiful tone, like "transient" noise (whatever that is), is a delusion. You push a piano key down, and it is louder and softer, and longer and shorter. There is nothing else you can do to an individual note that makes the slightest difference to the music. It is the way the notes are combined by the pianist that makes a beautiful tone. (I would put this last sentence in capitals but it would be vulgar to do so.)
A "singing" sound on the piano is arrived at by shaping the melody and molding the harmony and the counterpoint: when that is done right, the sound is beautiful, as the harmonies vibrate and the melody has a unified and convincing contour. (This is how one can produce a beautiful sound on a piano which may seem at first to give a sonority that is intractably ugly.) The belief that anything else contributes to a beautiful tone, like "transient" noise (whatever that is), is a delusion. You push a piano key down, and it is louder and softer, and longer and shorter. There is nothing else you can do to an individual note that makes the slightest difference to the music. It is the way the notes are combined by the pianist that makes a beautiful tone. (I would put this last sentence in capitals but it would be vulgar to do so.)
A very interesting article - thanks for posting!
Of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!you can make lots of tone on a piano.if ur finger's stiff, the tone u produce on the piano would definitely b stiff like what ur fingers r like.the way ur fingers press the key wil determine what sort of tone youw will produce.such as forte, if u press it toooooo hard, the sound wave would go like this
----------------------------------------->but if u press it softer but wil strength(hard to illustrate)it wlould go in the shape of a sphere.the tone would b ''spinning'', unlike the dead-feeling straight forte.
----------------------------------------->but if u press it softer but wil strength(hard to illustrate)it wlould go in the shape of a sphere.the tone would b ''spinning'', unlike the dead-feeling straight forte.
Yes, and a relaxed arm and shoulder will produce a different tone from that of a stiff rigid arm and shoulder for instance.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Oct 22 2005, 07:44 AM)
Yes, and a relaxed arm and shoulder will produce a different tone from that of a stiff rigid arm and shoulder for instance.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Oct 22 2005, 07:44 AM)
Yes, and a relaxed arm and shoulder will produce a different tone from that of a stiff rigid arm and shoulder for instance.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
I don't agree about being too old for technical exercises by the way - I have students that are older than you, and I give them technical exercises to do - granted there isn't a grade 8 among them yet, but still ...
Lots of useful advice in previous replies, I hope you get some help with your tone problem and good luck with your grade 8.
Has the piano been tuned in the last 6 months?
Two other hints.
1. A good and even legato will add a lot to the impression of ease in playing, and hence ease in listening. A lumpy disconnected melodic line is
2. Think about chords carefully. Are all the notes struck at exactly the same time? Try an exercise where you try to weight each voice/note in the chord differently - what effect does this have?
When I hear recordings of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli I am mesmerized by the way he can play just a simple common chord: utterly amazing...
1. A good and even legato will add a lot to the impression of ease in playing, and hence ease in listening. A lumpy disconnected melodic line is
2. Think about chords carefully. Are all the notes struck at exactly the same time? Try an exercise where you try to weight each voice/note in the chord differently - what effect does this have?
When I hear recordings of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli I am mesmerized by the way he can play just a simple common chord: utterly amazing...
Yes, you can control your tone on the piano! It comes from the weight you apply. The weight should be applied from the arm (anyone please correct me if I am wrong, haven't been studying piano for 6 years already). Let your arm be relaxed. To try that, try hold your whole arm high and let it drop down. It should hit your lap (if you are sitting of course due to gravity, meaning you have relaxed it) I used to have that problem last time until my teacher demonstrate on myself without my knowing that i actually hit myself quite hard!
And practice everything loud to get a nice tone, that's why my teacher always tell me.
And also I practice with a bag of marbles, abt 20 on each side, hanging on my wrist, quite hard to describe here. So that I apply pressure on each note.
But actually what I would say is 'don't play on the surface of the piano!'
Emm..hope what i say makes sense....
And practice everything loud to get a nice tone, that's why my teacher always tell me.
And also I practice with a bag of marbles, abt 20 on each side, hanging on my wrist, quite hard to describe here. So that I apply pressure on each note.
But actually what I would say is 'don't play on the surface of the piano!'
Emm..hope what i say makes sense....
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