I have a pupil whose house I travel to in order to give her her lessons. It's a good 15 minutes drive from my house, but I charge them a bit extra for petrol and don't usually mind too much doing it. However, there have been several occasions when I've turned up and there's been no-one in; I charge them for it anyway, and they've been okay with that. It is a bit of an annoying waste of time, though. And in the past, they have contacted me to arrange another lesson, or occasionally I have rung them. (They have variable schedules, so it's not the same lesson time every week.)

Last time I went, though (about 3 weeks ago now), they weren't there again, and so I left a message on the mum's voicemail saying they should contact me to arrange a lesson. I haven't heard anything since, but don't really feel it's my place to be chasing them - I have enough to do, and don't desparately need the money! I feel like giving it another week, and then writing them a nice but firm letter saying 1) that it's up to them to contact me, and 2) please could they pay my last bill. (There's 60-odd quid outstanding).

I don't have a problem with the pupil, and her parents are nice but just chronically disorganised. I'm not sure if I should say I'm not prepared to teach her any more, as it is beginning to tick me off. (Last time I was going there direct from somewhere else so had been driving half an hour to get to them on time!) I'm slightly worried that if I say I won't teach her, they will get snotty and refuse to pay my bill. But I don't really want to go crawling either to fix up more lessons, if they are going to mess me about.

Any views?!

Tell them they must pay the full amount what they owe you by a certain date of your choosing, otherwise there won't be any more lessons. Also tell them (nicely) that you'd prefer to change your arrangement with them to half a term's fees in advance otherwise no deal.

If they don't pay up by the allotted day, threaten them with solicitors etc. £60 is £60 and it's wrong of them to withhold money like this.

Violinia

In my opinion these sort of people are not worth teaching. Give them 1 warning, then they're out. Your time is more precious than that. i have done this in the past for some students with particularly annoying and unreliable parents, i know it sounds cold but I haven't regretted it one bit.

Dreadful behaviour.

Write a nice,short letter asking do they wish to continue tuition.Suggest they come to you. Also mention they owe you £60 and you would be grateful if payment is received within the 7 days.

If there is no response,or they don't send you a cheque to cover the outstanding fees,don't bother with a solicitor's letter ( sorry Violinia-they cost a bomb and usually don't acheive anything ) then write a very short and concise letter stating you will sue them via small claims court.Do not speak with them on the phone etc.

If you need help with this,please PM me and I will help you.

People like this make me very angry.They have no manners and treat teachers like servants.

- Semele

Aaargh, should have made that clearer - I meant, threaten legal action. Yes obviously sending solicitors' letters is going to cost you an arm and a leg, but from what I know a mere threat to take legal action is usually enough to concentrate people's minds, and a cheque usually arrives shortly after.

Violinia

This is SO annoying when this happens isn't it? I had the same experience recently with a pupil and I think it was a sign that the pupil was losing interest in doing lessons but didn't have the heart to tell me. Personally, I'd rather just stop the lessons rather than be messed about as it doesn't do your confidence much good when you turn up to do a lesson and there's no-one there. Its also very inconvenient as you have to usually hang around waiting for half an hour or so. In the end, this particular person in question decided that they wanted to stop because they were too busy to practice etc. I did lose one or two payments I have to admit but they are a family who I have been teaching on and of for a few years so I guess I felt I could cut them a bit of slack. I've learnt from this though and I won't suffer this kind of treatment from now on. The problem is that when you are financially dependant on all of your pupils, it's not good business to go around threatening to stop lessons when people miss the odd lesson!!
We're back to the old subject of paying in advance/contracts/payment for missed lessons again aren't we? There's no escaping it.

Gae

Back to the thorny old problem again.

There is no easy answer.

From the teachers' perspective:
- Insist on absolutely every available lesson be paid for, whatever the circumstances: we are heartles b*****
- Don't insist on absolutely every available lesson be paid for: we lose money.

I live in a part of the country where good services are valued - I am lucky. I do not charge for missed lessons; I make clear to new clients that I will 'sack' them if they do not attend regularly. This rarely happens.

I occasionally lose money. I never lose goodwill.

Steve

I do think if you go to the person's house and they're not there it's a pretty poor show. And if they owe you £60 as well.... hmm.

It does seem as if the teachers who ask for termly or half-termly fees in advance avoid all these money hassles. What seems to cause the problems is appearing suddenly to become mercenary in their eyes - when they thought you were so nice! If you set out your terms beforehand and stick to them, they know exactly where they are with you from the start and all these problems are avoided.

I still don't do it though.

Violinia

Hi
It's a bit late to join in, but I went to the Cafe and it sounds a bit uncomfortable so I've got a "takeout" instead.

I think I would issue an ultimatum to the parents and tell that that "time is money" and you cannot afford to waste it. They forget that we often do this for a living.
I MY case, my entire income relies on pupils (a) turning up at my place on time - either my home or studio - or ( them being at home when I call at an appointed time. Both (a) and ( are subject to last minute cancellations or un-announced non-attendance and whilst MOST pupils will apologise for the latter, it is the time wasted that I found annoying beyond belief.
In this area teachers are two-a-penny. Now, before anyone takes offence at that, I don't mean it in any offensive way. There ARE more private music teachers per square mile than anywhere else I know - most charge more than I do (even if I may say so, I am more experienced/qualified than they) and most expect £££ up front for a six or ten week term. I have never operated that way, but I do expect one week ££ in advance, and lessons chargeable if cancelled in less than 24 hours. HUH! can I get it though??? All the excuses under the sun!
I'm quite sure that many pupils think I'm like a spider in a web - nothing to do, just waiting for someone to drop by. The older I get, the harder I am becoming, yet for the sake of PR, I often have to bite my tongue, grin and bear it.
I get very depressed at times (like now) and feel very undervalued - even tempted to get a part-time job at M & S or B & Q - but with around 35 pupils a week, I can't afford to get stroppy over "let-downs".
For 2006 I would dearly love to introduce a "term" system. 6 weeks in advance, no refunds for cancellations, but lesson time re-scheduled if given 24hrs notice (min.) - less than 24hrs notice, lesson forfeited, if lesson needed to make up in that case, then chargeable........but I'm frightened of scaring (some of) them off.
Previous posts have said so many things I agree with! especially "Gae"

Best of luck Claire21

An ongoing subject!

Night all
Diapason

Diapason here

Ignore the signs. Don't know how they got there!

It IS late

Night again

Violinia, we have had our differences before. We shall have them again. Here, though, I think we feel the same way.

It seems to me that it all depends on what we want or need from life.

As a young teacher needing to assure a regular income to support a family, I needed the reassurance of a regular income. I charged termly in advance, and accepted no excuses for missing lessons. I took a lot of flack from long-standing 'regulars' (perhaps because I was young; people of my age - 54 - still doing this do not take 'flack'; they are merely hated).

When my the family started to grow up and my wife started to work, I was able to become more merciful. I stopped charging 'regulars' for missed lessons.

Now, with the family grown up, I can afford the policy I now adopt. Life is happy and stress-free, fee wise.

I prefer a happy atmosphere free from strife with parents. I am not completely 'wet', and will refuse to teach anyone whose parents mess me around (has happened once in the last 5 years).

I think we are in accord here?

Steve

We avoid some, but not all by any means, Violinia.

I recently had a run-in with a (hitherto reasonable) family who wanted to pick and choose over which dates their child would attend, and who altered the invoice I sent by deleting the dates they did not want.

I did not feel this was acceptable and made it clear. I have never had an invoice altered by the parents before. Had they gone about it differently and phoned up and discussed the dates we would no doubt have come to some agreement but they didn't bother to do that.

My undertaking to make up the missed lessons in the holidays - so they would not in fact lose out - was neither here nor there. They pulled out without giving notice. I don't regret standing my ground - since invoices are issued half-termly there is already more flexibility that with most school instrumental lessons - and a week that a child is away would probably not be made up in the hols either! I lost their goodwill - too bad. I can live with that - I can live less easily with the feeling that I have been walked over.

I do sometimes suspect that parents accept terms and conditions more easily from a bloke who they assume to be the breadwinner and mortgage-payer (no offence to any blokes around!!) than they do from a woman who is living with a partner or husband. They in fact have no idea of course who is the main earner in a household, but I think this idea of a female music teacher doing it for pin money is still alive and well in some people's minds. This of course is outdated nonsense: many women pay their own mortgages and support their families.

Claire 21 - it's unacceptable that you should turn up and find no-one in - (except in case of emergency of course). I think you should maybe write a nice but firm letter stating your case and asking for payment. How would the mother or father of the family feel if he or she arrived for work to be told "go home, we don't need you today - and you won't be paid "???

HERE HERE MaggieMay

A couple of weeks ago I turned to a pupil for 10.45am as usual to find curtains still closed and doors shut. The door has ALWAYS been open for me. After knocking and phoning on the mobile there was no reply (all this after 20 mins) so left card through the door.
I went to a nice cafe for coffee to wait until my next scheduled pupil some 6 miles away.
I phoned the absent pupil again, this time to receive a reply - "I overslept - I'll see you next week"

No apology - it was a huge joke - and no offer to pay for the lesson. I waited until after the next lesson had finished to see what money was given - enough for one session only......and then I felt embarassed at asking for what I thought was rightfully mine to ask for. It was given with reasonably good grace.......but It should have been offered..........don't you think.

Quite.I have to pay all bills and support my family without any help of child support as the CSA are so incompetent. I often wonder what the parents would think about my Contract if I had a partner thus two incomes coming in.But I would still have my Contract.

As for that family altering your invoice,that is just incredible.

Diapason - Yes it should have been offered without you asking. When I had to go on the road ( had no choice-I hated it ) I once turned up and no one was in.I asked for the fee the week later, but was told they wouldn't pay. I packed them in.I found when I had to travel to pupils houses I had a lot more problems securing payment.And it's not nice sitting in a car,especially during the winter months.

That's OK Sometimes a strong letter doesn't work either,but I agree,it's very rare.

Wooo, loads of replies while I wasn't looking over the weekend. Thanks everyone!

I suppose I'm on different footing to a lot of you as I have a 'proper' job, and just do a bit of music teaching on the side because I enjoy it and it keeps my hand in. The parents know this, in this case, so probably think it doesn't 'matter' so much if they mess me around - I still have an income from elsewhere. (If anything it matters more, as I could be spending that half an hour doing work for my main job!)

The parents' 'deadline' is this friday (4 weeks since last lesson - plenty long enough, I think!), so I will write to them then. I'll keep you posted what happens next!

Am I not right in thinking that if you take a student/parebt to court over non-payment they would have to pay your legal fees if you won (which if you have a written contract should be the case)?

Another way to make contracts less scary to students and parents is not to call it a contract. I offer a free half hour intoductory lesson (often followed by their normal paid lesson - i teach flute and sax and some students can spend the whole first lesson just getting their instruments checked & setup and making their first sound which always seemed a bit of a dispointment to me that I couldn't get them further in their normal time) which includes time to read and discuss the "Tuition Agreement" and worded it so that it states what the pupil must do followed by what I must do i.e.

In the event the Student discontinues lesson with insufficient notice, the Student/Parent/Guardian will be liable to pay for the lessons not taken during the notice period. In the event the Teacher discontinues lesson with insufficient notice, the Teacher will refund payment for the lessons not taken during the notice period.

Most of the points in the agreement are in that form. I've just started teaching but so far no one has wanted to make any changes. I also charge one month in advance with late payments incurring a charge of £5 a week, my reasoning being if I don't get paid and I miss a direct debit the bank will charge me at least £30.

Interesting post.

Yes they do have to pay for the Court fees plus interest and travel charges....plus baliff charges and so on, if they think they are really clever.

I call my contract " Terms of Tuition" and usually offer a FOC consultation where I hand them my Terms and explain the trial period etc.

New one on me charging a fiver for late fees.I think that's taking it a little far though.

As for the Notice period I state: "4 weeks notice must be given if tuition is to be discontinued.Pupils may pay for 4 lessons and reserve the right to accept tuition up to that point of notice. If tuition is to be terminated immediately payment in full for 4 lessons is required.I reserve the right to terminate lessons at any given time."

If they cancel in the middle of the month I usually let them off depending on their attitude or I make sure they pay the difference if they are rude and think they don't need to pay,like not contacting me to let me know,as an example,or denying ever receiving the Terms.

PS Another thing worth attention is not taking on a pupil aged 17 or below under your contract.They are still classed as minors.Even if they pay you must still get the parent to agree to the contract...otherwise the contract is void.You can't sue a minor.

You have given them far too long.If they haven't the courtesy to contact after a week I contact them.

Was advised by some teachers I know to do it as most of the time the student or parent will try and avoid extra charges at all costs. They have never needed to add a charge yet. You get charged late fees by plenty of companies with the idea being you try to do it as little as possible and the way I see it is that the same applies here.



I have three signatory lines teacher, student and parent/guardian. I get the student to sign anyway to indicate they've read it, then their parent/guardian signs too. Also throughout the agreement if refers to Student/Parent/Guardian. Means you just have to have one standard document for it.

But if things go wrong I assume you only have to sue the parent/guardian?

I can see both your point through. My eldest ,who has just started secondary school,has had to sign a few forms.

I also except the point that companies will charge you if you pay late.Luckily if they "forget" to pay me at the beginning of the month,they either drop the money in the next day or pay me the next lesson.

Just wish to say this.I can't fault a certain electric/gas company.Despite Accruread coming in my house on a regular basis the readings were not getting through to the company.So peeps,be aware of this.

As I pay by DD I never bothered to check the readings.Received letter saying they were increasing DD by £30 per month.I don't think so.I promptly changed suppliers.Having looked into this further,companies contract out to Accueread,so it wasn't their fault.

I have spoken to a manager at my old company and explained I can't pay the difference all in one go.They gave me the option of paying it up to 2 years interest free. I have opted to pay over 12 months.Excellent service.

I'm now going to phone the new company up each time I receive the bill and give them a consumer reading.Accueread are not being allowed in my house except once every 2 years as they have to by Law.I took great delight in telling the Accuread guy to get lost the other day as they can't be bothered to send on the readings to the company

Sorry to have gone off topic,but hope this helps peeps.

Had the same problem but neither the reading that were taken by Accueread nor the one we gave to our supplier online got through for most of a year. The one we gave them direct by telephone were just after we'd moved and we were told we could manage it all online.

As a result they worked out we owed them over £300 and the DDs jump from £30 a month to £96. Would switch but can't until we have paid off the money. Although thinking back, now they've brought in their price rises it all seems a little too convienient that we can't move companies. Ahh well these things happen.


Anyway...

I never planned for a charge to be strictly enforced, just as a major deterent and last resort. If someone comes to me and says sorry got some cash flow problems can I pay you on such and such a date that should be fine and gives me time to plan around it.

Yeah you would sue the Parent/Guardian if matters got that bad.

I have already switched suppliers and cancelled the DDs with the old supplier.I think if you want to switch suppliers,do it,cancel the DD online after you have received notification from your new supplier.Phone them up and give them your meter readings. Then speak to a manager ( you might really have to push at the advisers to do this ) of your old supplier with details of your meter readings ( my manager got in contact directly with new supplier ) and then they will arrange for you to pay off the difference.

Worked for me and I didn't even have a plan.Accuread didn't get in my house either.

The old supplier can't do anything ie sue you,because you have come to an arrangement with them.But you must do it after you know the new supplier has taken over from the old. Usually,with DDs,they make sure you are in credit with them,not the other way round. I just wish they did it monthly like my phone supplier.Much easier to keep in control when you are watching every penny.

It might be worth a phone call to your existing supplier to see how much you now owe out of interest.

Sorry to have gone off topic here.

I feel like putting in my 2p's worth .. as a paying parent.

My son learns 4 instruments and all of the teachers structure the payment differently.
Drumming - straight 4 weekly invoice, payable in advance. Contract was signed
Piano Accordion - monthly invoice in arrears. Some flexibility with missed lessons provided she is given notice.
Piano - cash (!), end of each lesson. University teacher who only has about 5 child pupils , all of whom have 'auditioned ' to be taught by her so we are very aware of the privilege. I don't think anyone ever misses a lesson - certainly we don't unless v sick then no charge
Singing - total flexibility. This was the arrangement at the start so we both knew where we stood. She isn't always available to teach and in return accepts that on a few occassions we aren't available to come. No bills, no invoices .. she tends to forget so I keep a note on the calander and pay every 10 lesons ( which may be spread over 2 terms)

Which do I prefer ?? Personally the two who invoice, although the cash piano isn't too bad except I always end up rushing to the bank beforehand!

I think the poster who commented that a laisse faire attitude to payment is indicitive of a similarly relaxed, non committed attitude to lessons hit the nail on the head.

Music, in this house, is afforded high priority ( you might have already guessed ) and tutors are spoken of respectfully and treated likewise with regard to payment.

Update time:

My nice but firm letter (with bill) has produced a slightly grovelling email, and the request for more lessons. Part of me wants to tell them to get lost (I don't need the money desparately), but I do like the child concerned, and don't have anything against her personally.

I will definitely ask for a month's (or term's?) payment in advance from now on, but I can't really think of a solution to the turning-up-on-empty-house's-doorstep problem... Other than just to grit my teeth and take the cash...

But crucially did they pay?

Not yet, but seeing as I sent them a letter in the post, and they emailed me back, that's probably understandable... I'm trusting that they'll give it me next time I see them!

You are insane - get them to drop the money owing around to you. What if you make another trip and they are "out".

Hmm, good point.


I evidently have much too trusting a nature.

They are doing this to you because they can. They are probably really disorganised about paying the electric bill too - but not so much that they get cut off. The obviously pay their ISP because they emailed you. Maybe suggest a standing order, and definitely get money in advance - then if you turn up you have already had your petrol money.

It's great to be trusting - but trust once lost needs to be earnt back.

Further to Ringarina's posting. What has been stopping them sending a cheque or Postal Order to you or better still a bank transfer? Then,as suggested,get a SO set up when you next see them.

OK. When you go round again make sure you get all the money owing and the next FIVE lessons in advance via cheque. You then will issue a bill at the beginning of every fifth lesson in the parent's hands.They can't make excuses that they have "forgotton" their cheque book as you are in their house.I expect you might hear that "they can't find it" or " I'm waiting for a new cheque book".

If this happens ( be ruthless - I understand you like the pupil ) SUE them.

EDIT: Just thought....Every fifth lesson when you hand over the bill ask for the cheque to be postdated to the date of every FIRST of the five lessons. Then if something happens ,for instance,if they are "out" you have the cheque.

btw...if a cheque bounces,you can SUE on the cheque.

Success! They have agreed to all my demands! The cheque for the last lessons, and some more in advance, is apparently in the post...

So let's see what happens next...

Hmm, where have I heard that one before? Claire21, I hope this time it really is!